FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: Reebs on May 02, 2013, 06:14:47 PM
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Hey I'm new here.
Odd how I found the site, I probably Google FED plans once a week just to see if there are any plans out there and I found this page.
Long story short of my interest in FED. My daughter asked me to draw a race car for her so I drew a FED she said "that's not a car" and I said when I was a kid I drew these all the time. That has given me the bug to build one and it has been with me a few years.
I'm 50 years old and want to build one someday but I have to admit they scare me. I plan to speed time at the track this year paying attention to the few FED around (I do a little bracket racing with my 70 skylark)
I have e-mailed and talk to several of the names one this board about FED, this seems like a nice place to learn.
My ignorance will show with each post and thread.
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First off someday is to far away. Take it from 47 yearold time goes by way to xxxx fast. I started mine 2 years ago and due to slow cash flow Im still building. Funny ting we never see how fast life goes by till a lot of it is gone.
Dude not to be smartbutt.There is no time like the present. Mark Willams sales blue prints if you need them. Lots of guys build FED's. There is nothing to scared of. These things are lot safer than the old designs of the early sixties. Email me at wydopn2312@yahoo.com if would like to chat some one updated design.
Come on over to dark side where men drive cars that the little rearengine guys dare to tread near.Besides the more FED's out there the better.
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:D Hi and welcome! These FEDs are a lot of fun, very safe and cheaper to build and run than any door car. Since they are such lightweights, it doesn't take much hp to make them go and it doesn't take a big trailer and truck combo to pull one around. A true 375 hp small block anything, if geared right will put you into the low 9s in the quarter, high 5s in the 1/8 on pump gas. Lots of folks are scared to sit on top of the differential but in reality it's the strongest part of the car. Just climb in one and you're hooked!
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A friend of mine showed me a visual of time passing that really brought it home for me.
He pulled out a tape measure and pulled it out to 63 inches and said, Glenn, this is how much time has passed you by at this point. Then he pulled it out to 82 inches and said you will be lucky if you are still as active as you are today at this point. 18 inches compared to the 63 that have passed looked very short to me.
Make the most of the time you got, go for it.
I started racing five years ago in a 78 Firebird and have not looked back.
I have had a huge amount of fun in the FED I have now. My wife is my crew cheif ant that couldn't be better.
In the PM I sent you when you signed up was this message
We have great resources here on Front Engine Dragsters.
We have three gentlemen that have stepped up to host questions in their particular area of expertise.
In the Technical category you will find;
Spuds Miller’s Cave where you can ask questions of and get answers from Spud Miller of Fuel Injection Enterprises (Fuel and Ignition).
Roo Man's Room where you can Ask questions of and get answers from Keith Burgan of Roo Man Motor Sports / Vintage Racing Supply (Steering, Suspension, Chassis, Fabrication, Racing History)
Matt Shaff's Engine Shop where you can ask questions of and get answers from Matt Shaff of Pro-Formance Specialties (Engine)
These are great resources unique to this forum, and free to members of the forum.
If I can help with any forum issues let me know
Glenn R. Lever
autoshop@rochester.rr.com
There are many others here that will help.
Start tonight. start your build thread here on the forum under "Your Builds / Photo Gallery" we will all watch and help you along the way.
One other thing, as far as being safe, if you build it correctly, and NHRA and IHRA will make sure you do. they are safer that a door car as they are long and want to go straight.
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Good to have you aboad...I've been hooked on FEDs about 50 years. There is no better racecar to
me. Plans are available from Mark Williams, S & W, Parks,Tuttle and maybe Rooman and others. They
also sell kits, which is a much safer approach for a newbie. Also, there are always a bunch of good
used units out there...several on racejunk.com every day.
If you buy a roller with a current chassis certification, it will be a pretty good challenge to get an engine, tranny, plumb it, wire it, hook up all the controls and safety stuff, truck, trailer and learn
how to operate & drive it. That should occupy you for a year or two. Then if you decide to build one
from scratch ... you will probably know enough to do a better job. Good people in this sport. They
will help you with any direction you decide to go. Just my $.02.
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Good to have you aboad...I've been hooked on FEDs about 50 years. There is no better racecar to
me. Plans are available from Mark Williams, S & W, Parks,Tuttle and maybe Rooman and others. They
also sell kits, which is a much safer approach for a newbie. Also, there are always a bunch of good
used units out there...several on racejunk.com every day.
If you buy a roller with a current chassis certification, it will be a pretty good challenge to get an engine, tranny, plumb it, wire it, hook up all the controls and safety stuff, truck, trailer and learn
how to operate & drive it. That should occupy you for a year or two. Then if you decide to build one
from scratch ... you will probably know enough to do a better job. Good people in this sport. They
will help you with any direction you decide to go. Just my $.02.
X2
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If you buy a roller with a current chassis certification, it will be a pretty good challenge to get an engine, tranny, plumb it, wire it, hook up all the controls and safety stuff, truck, trailer and learn how to operate & drive it. That should occupy you for a year or two. Then if you decide to build one from scratch ... you will probably know enough to do a better job. Good people in this sport. They
will help you with any direction you decide to go. Just my $.02.
If you don't have much experience than this is definitely the way to go. Much easier than building a car from scratch . . .
I've been around race cars for a number of years in almost every type of racing and even did the clutch in two nitro funny cars and was still unprepared for everything with the dragster starting from a pile of tubing on the floor. There's a lot of little stuff that you can skip over if you buy a frame already done or a complete FED ready to go and really if you don't have the time or shop availability to do it then you are better off.
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I passed one up about 10 yrs ago. finally got a roller 2 yrs at age 60. door cars are okay, but when I first tried the fed out in my driveway, it was the right race car for me. just too cool. and I run a buick 350 engine in it that eventually will have a blower on it. loving every minute of it. ;D ;D
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START OFF WITH A SIMPLE LOW MAINT. ENGINE/TRANS COMBO. YOU,LL BE SURPRISED HOW FAST A 10-1 ,350 CHEVY,MILD HYD CAM AND 750 HOLLEY WILL GO. ALSO THE CAR SHPULD BE AS CLOSE TO 225" WHEEL BASE AS POSSIBLE, ITS ALOT EASYIER TO DRIVE AND ALOT SAFER.
BOB IN TN.
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I drive an Altered and it was evil when I got it. An FED is easier to drive. My Altered had issues and problems but I got them sorted out and it is a Blast to drive. A good FED should not be as hard to drive and it does not take much power at all to make them haul.
My car weighs 1675 with me in it and does 8.20's in the 1/4. And my motor is a very mild 434 with less than 650 Hp. Many FED's are lighter than that so it does not take much. I agree a good flat top 355 would surprise you and you would like it. Nothing quite like sitting over the rear with motor in front of you and making a good pass.
As for being scared I do not think that is the right word, you need to be alert and on your toes and ready to get out of it if needed. If you ever have to get out of it do not jump on it again. Just ease into it and drive on down the track for another day.
On my car I went from single rear brakes to 4 wheel brakes and also added another set of rear brakes with hand brake. I of course have a parachute if needed.
Every now and then a decent FED will pop up on Racingjunk for a decent price and if possible that is what I would do get a complete or as complete as possible On any car much of the cost is the little things, fuel pump, fuel lines, wiring, etc and if you can get one with most of that done it will save you a bunch of time and money.
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I've been struggling to get a car together for years and just now am getting close. That's because I have went about it ALL the wrong way.
To make it short....I would try to buy a done car, at least a roller. I see cars on the internet that are selling for about 40 cents on the dollar (would be my guess). What a huge savings!! Not to mention precious TIME!
I would avoid any old, 1960's car that doesn't have a current chassis sticker on it. The old cars can have so much incorrect (diameters, placement, heights, etc.) that they can hardly be made to certify....cheaper, cleaner, safer to avoid the whole mess. (ask me how I know)
Also, be aware that different chassis inspectors don't always agree (especially true between different NHRA divisions). A car with a current or just expired sticker may not satisfy the next official that inspects it. Then it's back to the drawing board....weld, cut, etc. (ask me how I know).
If I were buying a car with any doubt, I would try to make the deal contingent on the car passing chassis inspection in my home division....even if I had to pay for the recertification myself. (yes, ask me how I know).
If you get a car that won't sticker you will be lucky to get a sand-dragger to take it off your hands. (sadly, ask me how I know).
Finally, I developed the habit of getting on ebay or the drag cites (or going to a swap meet) and buying junk with no real plan (regarding the part). Yea, got lots of cool old stuff but, geez, what a waste of money.
SO, there's all the brainless mistakes I've made.
If money and time are an issue (when isn't it?) Have you though about a partnership? I know a couple guys that split the cost and get twice as much work done.....one weekend John Doe drives and the other crews / next weekend Joe Blow drives, etc. They have a lot of fun.
What about making an offer on a hometown car? ...one that you know and the track officials know? Racers are often dreaming of that next project, higher class, lower ET.....might just get a handshake. Since you're new, the old owner may be very friendly to the idea of coaching and helping you with his old car.
Well, anyway, please avoid the dumb things I've done and good luck.
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sounds like your experiance with buying car disproves everyones advice when I started building my FED and for some of the reason I did build. Older cars are cool but they lack some in being stup for best end result. I wanted to incorporate a few things older cars would not have had and wanted to build it.For me the build is as much or more fun then the ride.IMO nothing cooler then winning in car you built and with motor you built.
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friend of mine wanted a FED real bad, looked for a long time. Money being biggest problem finally found an old car sitting in a garage for over 10 years, bought it, I helped him bring it up to racable condition. The engine was worn out the trans was worn out, but all in all a good car. we had an engine (pretty much stock) and we rebuilt the trans (powerglide) Put a radiator on it, and run the xxxx out of it. Mostly a wash and race type car. Enjoyed it so much went out and got me one too. I've been racing all my life (61 years old now) and this has got to be one of the cheapest and most fun experiences I've had the pleasure to do. So do it you will not regret it. This site has people that have the experience and are willing to help
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Here is a few that I think are interesting. From mild to wild, good luck with your search.
http://www.racingjunk.com/Nostalgia/182132979/FED-for-sale.html
http://www.racingjunk.com/Nostalgia/182125555/1995-Front-Engine-Dragster.html
http://www.racingjunk.com/Nostalgia/182121963/-F.E.D.-.html
http://www.racingjunk.com/Nostalgia/182116219/FED-Front-Engine-Dragster-w-Trailer-.html
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I never even sat in a FED until I was 50....until I bought it...lol, mine's only a 10.0 car.... took about 5 pass's to run it all out the full 1/4, but man it's fun, oh and 70 buick bracket racer here to.
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all of you have hit it on the head. The first time I ever saw or heard of a front engine dragster was while I was at the local barber. Hotrod guy, went to Carlisle and bought a ratty 6cyl fed and from that point I was hooked. at 42 I bought a set of front spindles and went from there. I made my first passes last year and WOW. I have been racing my 66 Chevelle and running a UMP Modified for years but this is a different level of cool. And the bang for the dollar is awesome, I have less then 10k into my new chassis and everything to make is turn key. The best was after making my second half track test run (330ft) my brother-in-law that I have been racing against in everything, came over and asked how it was and I told him it went well. "1/2 throttle to 330 and 10deg total timing (small used injected chevy) and it went 4.0sec and coasted through at 7.48". The look on his face was great as him exclaimed "my full tube corvair doesn't run 7.50 on a full pass!" That made all the time and effort worth while, among so many other things.
Best thing is to keep the car in context. Race/build what you are comfortable with. Someone will always give opinion on what it should be or was in the day and that is great information but may not be right for you. I like to race, not rebuild the motor every other weekend so I don't push it to the hairy edge, so guys do and that is great for them.
Scared, naw excited. When I sit in the car I can't stop my right foot from shaking it is crazy. My Grandfather asked me a longtime ago if I got Buck Fever and I embarrassingly said yes, his reply is "you better or you may as well stop, because your hunting for the wrong reason otherwise". I don't see racing any different or life for that matter.
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Hey I'm new here.
Odd how I found the site, I probably Google FED plans once a week just to see if there are any plans out there and I found this page.
Long story short of my interest in FED. My daughter asked me to draw a race car for her so I drew a FED she said "that's not a car" and I said when I was a kid I drew these all the time. That has given me the bug to build one and it has been with me a few years.
I'm 50 years old and want to build one someday but I have to admit they scare me. I plan to speed time at the track this year paying attention to the few FED around (I do a little bracket racing with my 70 skylark)
I have e-mailed and talk to several of the names one this board about FED, this seems like a nice place to learn.
My ignorance will show with each post and thread.
Guys. Reebs here wrote this awhile ago..
Reebs you out there??? Lets get you in a car. Lifes short.
Luke
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second and third on Curly1's post look to be very good deals
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My first ride in a drag car,doing my Lic. Runs, in a hard tail 505 BB Altered. My third run 8.52 and completely blew my mind. After the run I thought holy cow that was insane and I loved it.I have a Vega door car now ,but looking to get a FED, just love the wind in my face. Do not be scared,be excited.
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I'm on my third front end car, first two were rollers which I rebuilt in an off season. the third is our car from scratch, and we're three years in....but we did have our children over this period but I beleive even working on it flat out, we could have only done it in two years.
Best advice I can give is to assess what you are good at and what you enjoy. If you can fab and weld and will get a kick out the build, then build but have a plan and stick to it. If you just want to race, theres no doubt buying a turnkey ride or roller is the way to go.
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Once you do it you will never regret it!!!!! I ran a 9.90 door car for years and took the plundge 2 years ago. Built mine from a kit with the help of a few good people who ran the FED's back in the day. What a differance it was!!!! I have always wanted a front engine dragster since I was a little kid building the models of them. I was Scared at first but after a couple of passes .... it's a blast!!!!!!! So good luck and follow your dreams!!!!
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Nice car
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I say go for it , turned 60 jan. 2014,,,,bought 60's FED on e-bay,,,totaly useless,,,ordered new chassis tached together, picked up in late april,,,car stickered and track passed tech, first 6 passes done by late september 2014. it doesnt have to take years and a pile of money when you have talented and loyal FRIENDS,,,just sayin
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I'm another 50 year old that just got my first FED a little over a year ago. It's absolutely the most fun ride I've ever been on. My best advice is start with a good solid roller and start low on the horsepower until you get comfortable in the car then add more power as you go. I was a little scared of mine for the first few passes but after your first 4 or 5 passes it gets easier.
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Built mine from scratch--2 1/2 years until it looked like a dragster and whew!! Learned more than I ever imagined--If I was doing over again I would find a roller that has big enough cockpit--and go from there. I have six passes on my car and would do lots of things different next time so the roller first is great advice! Trouble with used older cars is narrow cockpit--pass on any that do not feel comfortable and remember when you try one on to wear a jacket or light coat ( like a suit will be)
Any cheap engine will take your breath away first pass--leave great engine for later--
I have to say that this is one heck of a group and the first pass you make in a FED will be one of the best days of your entire life--we ALL feel that way after!!!!!!
It is about 300% better than you can imagine
The first burnout is so much fun you want to back up and do it again!
DO IT!! Find a car and start learning---I drag raced for over 25 years in a door car but feel like I wasted a lot of time NOT being in a real drag car--These cars are life changing--just crazy fun.
The one thing I just did not understand and see was this--you just can't run one by yourself--you will need some help--if only one--you need some crew help--work on that as you build the car--get folks interested so they want to go and help--Free beer helps :)
Good Luck!!! Have someone that Knows look at any car BEFORE you pay $$$--it may save you tons of regret
Welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Built mine from scratch--2 1/2 years until it looked like a dragster and whew!! Learned more than I ever imagined--If I was doing over again I would find a roller that has big enough cockpit--and go from there. I have six passes on my car and would do lots of things different next time so the roller first is great advice! Trouble with used older cars is narrow cockpit--pass on any that do not feel comfortable and remember when you try one on to wear a jacket or light coat ( like a suit will be)
Any cheap engine will take your breath away first pass--leave great engine for later--
I have to say that this is one heck of a group and the first pass you make in a FED will be one of the best days of your entire life--we ALL feel that way after!!!!!!
It is about 300% better than you can imagine
The first burnout is so much fun you want to back up and do it again!
DO IT!! Find a car and start learning---I drag raced for over 25 years in a door car but feel like I wasted a lot of time NOT being in a real drag car--These cars are life changing--just crazy fun.
The one thing I just did not understand and see was this--you just can't run one by yourself--you will need some help--if only one--you need some crew help--work on that as you build the car--get folks interested so they want to go and help--Free beer helps :)
Good Luck!!! Have someone that Knows look at any car BEFORE you pay $$$--it may save you tons of regret
Welcome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree you need help, if only to belt you in, but retrieving the FED from the top end if the strip is a real help also.
My wife and I make a good team.
Who ever helps needs to be the same person over and over.
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I agree with most of the others about time. If you could draw them you can make them. Get a set of NHRA rules to keep in the safe part of design and build and start collecting parts. I'm 67 I stared working on mine in 2009 and I finished my car in 2011 and it certified. Between then and now It's been changing and tuning and getting used to the sensory overload one experiences when driving a fed. Consider a few things: safety, what you want it to look like, how long, wide enough for comfort, how much room do you have for it, do you want to have fun or run so fast you scare your insurance agent. Right now is when you can decide on a lot of these questions and save yourself some grief later on. Mark Midler
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the sooner you go make a pass in your new fed the sooner the bugs and worries go away and you find out how much fun they really are.My two cents would be to make sure you are running the same air pressure in your slicks cause if one is higher then the other on a hard launch you may find you drift hard the opposite way..not a big thing but if you aren't ready for it then it might be alittle unsettleing..once you have a good pass you will be hooked...yesterdays are gone so enjoy today and hope for tomorrow but don't wait to long cause lifes clock is a tickin....enjoy the ride!
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Hey I'm Back!!!
I started this thread a few years ago.
I got the bug again. I'm going to start looking for a roller. That makes sense to me. Thanks for the advice.
reebz
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Yea, we know the deal.Wife told you no! You got scared of her and backed off.
If not so prove me wrong and let us see the pics of car you buy soon! LOL
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Wideopen
My wife would never say no, she want me dead.
In all seriousness I'm looking for a roller money is tight but xxxx its always tight.
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Ok
Now that you have gained knowledge,if using this site properly. You are ready to rock out.Go get you a FED and join the crazy folks.You know those who think that driving means more than letting button go and deciding when to lift .Easy enough on lifting its at 1321' or 661' feet depending on track.
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Anyone ever dealt with http://www.slingshotdragsters.com/kits.html Slingshot dragsters? What was your experience like is yes?
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Anyone ever dealt with http://www.slingshotdragsters.com/kits.html Slingshot dragsters? What was your experience like is yes?
Keith will give you an ear full on these guys, ask him.
When I was doing the research to build mine I visited his shop and if you go to this link you will see the result.
Sling shot dragsters is Cen-Pen Speed Shop owned by John Worn
http://www.lever-family-racing.com/lever-family-racing-home/family-vehicles/2010-front-engine-dragster/2010-front-engine-dragster-shop-selection (http://www.lever-family-racing.com/lever-family-racing-home/family-vehicles/2010-front-engine-dragster/2010-front-engine-dragster-shop-selection)
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Dragster supply has a chassis and body with parts brand new never fully assembled for sale customer wanted to go a different direction . this is a fantastic buy call david beard at dragstersupply.com . 1-603 324-9496 you will be glad you did.
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There was a guy at Englishtown last weekend with a Cen Penn chassis that did not pass cert . Somthing about the upright under the motor plate .I have seen some of David Beard's cars and they look really nice !
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My Cenpen passed NHRA cert in less than 10 minutes--passing is way more about the jackwagon doing the looking than the cars from what I have seen.
Say what you want I love my 200 inch Cenpen and it has been running and doing great!
Plenty of them running goood if in the hands of real racers. They are building 50 gassers to every FED right now--you guys need to embrace any that are being raced and quit with the BS about John--You don't like his cars? Buy a different one but --are there better ones ? Yes--There are better burgers than McDonalds but they sell a lot of burgers and the folks that eat them are happy--
New guy...give me a phone call 704 244 6649 and I will tell you about a half dozen Worm cars and the happy owners that are racing xxxx out of them SAFE and CERTIFIED!
Mossburg shotguns are not as good as a Browning but you can't tell that to all the dead deer and other game.
I get it--a few of you thought better and went a different way--you have cars you are happy with and feel like they are way better than Jons cars--OK OK I understand but I do not understand knocking anyone that wants to join your ranks--that sees some advantage for themselves in buying something other than what You think is the way to go.
The couple few on here have just about pissed me off on this subject.
Anyone that wants the truth about Cenpens call a man that has just about worn an engine out in one this season-- 704 244 6649 or email me at jdk@ctc.net for a complete photo history of my build from scratch and what I learned and tips that will help you out. We are having safe fun in an NHRA certified safe car that is doing as good as any out there. I guess in the "glory days" alll those 80 -90 home made cars that showed up would not have met with your approval either.
You guys need MORE members not Less.
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OK Duster Dave
I think about the same as you on this subject. Of the cars I've owned, the super trick ones always seem to be built on the minimum spec & prone to sagging & cracking. These never seem to have enough room to fit the combos I put together with out big issues. I now build my stuff over kill & with room for changes. Nobody has to like my stuff but the chassis inspector. I think the one big issue with Worm cars is they are usually sold incomplete & the low buck $$ guy trying to put it together is lacking experience & money to make it happen without trashing it. many just give up & blame it on the builder.
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I will stay out of the argument on the "engineering"of John's cars because most people know my feelings (and that of a number of other builders) on that but remind anyone of the large number of people who have trouble getting him to return phone calls or reply to e-mails as to the status of their chassis or parts. You get what you pay for folks. As for the conception that his cars are cheaper than the opposition, try adding up all the items needed to build a complete car using his spread sheet and see how close the number is to getting a car from S &W, Dragster Supply etc.
Van, any car that cracks and sags (even when built to the minimum spec) is either poorly engineered or not being hauled correctly. Both of Mark Vaught's cars have made a huge number of runs in the 7.0 class at 190 plus mph and the only time that I had to repair the frame was when the air bag supporting the chassis deflated on a trip home from Bakersfield to Indy. If your combo does not fit the chassis you started out with the wrong chassis. You are correct in that Worm's cars are usually being put together by guys without much (if any) experience and that makes it even more important that there is plenty of customer service available (and someone with the experience to provide it).
Dave, a Cenpen will pass chassis cert anywhere as it has all the tubes required and they are all well above the minimum spec. The problem is that when the car is complete it becomes obvious that the "motor upright" is not in line with the motor plate which is what the spec intends. That means that the motor is not supported by the upright as intended. Worm gets away with this because his frames are .095 wall and as such do not sag or flex at that point. What that also means is that the motor plate does not act as a firewall between the engine and the cockpit in the (unlikely) event that the car does have an engine failure resulting in a fire. I have also seen several of his cars that do not have a belly pan under the cockpit. This is another rule requirement that is not addressed with the body package that comes from Worm and obviously some builders (and track tech inspectors) do not recognize this fact. The pedal mounting plate that he supplies does not comply with this rule although it does meet the one that specifies that a sub floor (or tubing) is required to keep the driver's feet off the belly pan.
Although he has built and sold a lot of frames Worm has little real experience in running dragsters apart from his own car so he does not have the knowledge to really help any customer who has problems getting his car down the track and that shows in the fact that he builds the same basic car for everyone no matter what they plan to put in it.
At the sportsman level that most people run at a Worm car will get the job done as evidenced by Dave's experience but there are lots of better options that will allow you to step if if you ever want to.
Roo
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Roo, thank you for that well written post.
During my search for a new chassis I thought a bare welded frame would be the way to go. Since we bent my last car all I need to purchase is the chassis itself, (swapping all the hard parts over) There are a few out there that fit the style and budget. Then after digging a little deeper I found just what you said. The money is in the details. All the little bracketry for shifter, steering, pedals, tabs for everything else soon drive the price up on the budget chassis to the point where I could just write you or Frank a check and be about done. The "kits" add up the same if you have to pay someone to weld it. I figured for the amount of money I have spent over the years having chassis shops weld those little bits, or make changes to my last car I could have bought a nice TIG machine and a bender. But I still would not have the engineering skills to build a GOOD car.
Now with that said my next build will start soon. I found someone local who has build a handful of FEDs and will allow me to help out in his shop and teach me how to weld and we will build it from scratch. I have seen one of his cars that crashed and I know how he built the driver compartment that is a little overkill and still keep the nostalgic look that I want. I can build my own body and even with my limited welding ability will be able to hang any tabs and widgets after it leaves his shop. (I will buy my own small TIG welder)
And I want to thank you for all the questions you have answered on this board that have helped me determine what I want, and for all those questions I am about to ask that I have not even thought of yet!
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Glenn or Rooman
One of these days I may have to drive to your house to talk. I'm so ignorant on FED I'm not sure the first question to ask. I will bring food and beer so in exchange for knowledge.
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After reading several threads from the past and then this one, I’ve got to say that buying a complete used rolling chassis or even a complete running racecar will put you a whole lot closer to making passes down the track and at a whole lot less expense. Buy as much of a car as you can afford, keeping in mind your car is an investment of your dollars. Buying a quality used car that fits you and meets your needs will give you many seconds of pure joy (1/8 or 1/4 mile at a time) and can provide a good financial return on your investment should you decide to sell it (as long as you care for it properly and stay out of trouble). Couple of years ago I bought a nice running junior fuel car that was built in 2003 by a veteran chassis builder and then added a new set of tires, new rings & bearings, and a few small items. I could not have bought a new cylinder block, rods, crank, heads and injection like what came with the car for what I paid for the complete car. Just my thoughts:)
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Roger, I believe you are correct.
I bought a used roller 15 years ago but it was an original 69/70 car. I did some updates and was still cheaper than a new one. Unfortunately the front was still old pipe and created problems. I see a lot of very cool old cars out there with way too many passes on them and too much flex and I am always afraid they are going to break. Just be aware of what you are buying and know that 40 year old pipe will have more fatigue than one that is 4 or 5 years old.
I could buy one that is a recent build and it would do everything I ever want it to do. I have recommended people do just that. I am just at a point where I want to build something new and incorporate some things in it from the start instead of adding to a used build. As someone already said, there is just something cool about telling someone at the track that you built this chassis.
Any way you go, just be safe and get out there and do it, we are not getting any younger. I know I am not.
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I will stay out of the argument on the "engineering"of John's cars because most people know my feelings (and that of a number of other builders) on that but remind anyone of the large number of people who have trouble getting him to return phone calls or reply to e-mails as to the status of their chassis or parts. You get what you pay for folks. As for the conception that his cars are cheaper than the opposition, try adding up all the items needed to build a complete car using his spread sheet and see how close the number is to getting a car from S &W, Dragster Supply etc.
Van, any car that cracks and sags (even when built to the minimum spec) is either poorly engineered or not being hauled correctly. Both of Mark Vaught's cars have made a huge number of runs in the 7.0 class at 190 plus mph and the only time that I had to repair the frame was when the air bag supporting the chassis deflated on a trip home from Bakersfield to Indy. If your combo does not fit the chassis you started out with the wrong chassis. You are correct in that Worm's cars are usually being put together by guys without much (if any) experience and that makes it even more important that there is plenty of customer service available (and someone with the experience to provide it).
Dave, a Cenpen will pass chassis cert anywhere as it has all the tubes required and they are all well above the minimum spec. The problem is that when the car is complete it becomes obvious that the "motor upright" is not in line with the motor plate which is what the spec intends. That means that the motor is not supported by the upright as intended. Worm gets away with this because his frames are .095 wall and as such do not sag or flex at that point. What that also means is that the motor plate does not act as a firewall between the engine and the cockpit in the (unlikely) event that the car does have an engine failure resulting in a fire. I have also seen several of his cars that do not have a belly pan under the cockpit. This is another rule requirement that is not addressed with the body package that comes from Worm and obviously some builders (and track tech inspectors) do not recognize this fact. The pedal mounting plate that he supplies does not comply with this rule although it does meet the one that specifies that a sub floor (or tubing) is required to keep the driver's feet off the belly pan.
Although he has built and sold a lot of frames Worm has little real experience in running dragsters apart from his own car so he does not have the knowledge to really help any customer who has problems getting his car down the track and that shows in the fact that he builds the same basic car for everyone no matter what they plan to put in it.
At the sportsman level that most people run at a Worm car will get the job done as evidenced by Dave's experience but there are lots of better options that will allow you to step if if you ever want to.
Roo
I know that you are right--I know that if I started over I would go a different direction for sure! I know that the issues you point to are legit I RESPECT you and your smarts/experience It won't be long and I will have as many runs as John :)
My car started out as bare chassis--I somehow asked, guessed, and otherwise figured out what and how to get it done --I have a car that can show up at any decent track come out of the trailer and run three runs with nary a drop leaked, a sputter uttered, or issue of any kind--get next to me and I will lay a xxxx lap on you--not so fast a lap as my power is limited but I can lay down three that would make any bracket racer grin. It was not easy--and the big plus is I have over 20 years of hard core racing under my belt--that Saved me from the disaster that may befall a rookie that buys a Worm "Dream Kit" I do understand that!!
I am just saying that it can be done and not ALL of his chassis kits will sit forever.
In the words of Rodney King--can't we all just get along I am smiling hope you all are too!!!!!
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Dave,
I have no beef with anyone who buys a Worm car/kit--at least they are planning to race rather than bitch about how much it costs and sit on the sideline. My issue is that he has been building the same car over and over without addressing any of the shortcomings. The first stuff that we did in Australia 50 years ago looks crude in hindsight but we learned from our mistakes and made things better the next time around.
Admittedly we were not trying to make a living building those cars but by the same token there is really no cost involved in fixing most of the "issues" with the Cenpen car at the source--when they are stacked up on the jig. John's cars look as good as anything out there in respect to the vintage feel but the detail work lets them down and again that is all based on making the build simple (read more profitable) from his point of view. I also question his commitment to building the best product when the one that I have in my shop at the moment has splices in all four front frame rails as he evidently did not have long enough sticks of tubing to make them one piece. Of course this was one of the "Giveaway" cars and he was probably trying to reduce his investment even though more than enough people paid $25 for a $6 T shirt to get in on the deal (and cover his costs).
And on that subject his profit/cost/effort ratio is probably better than just about any other shop out there. Discounting the shortcuts he takes with his chassis, he lists a quick release steering wheel hub at $160 when you can get one from Strange for $83 and a butterfly is $140 compared with the Chassis Shop billet grip version at $88. Likewise spoke front wheels are $1199 while Jon at Hayden will sell you a pair for $1000. The pedal package from John is $150 (with questionable geometry on the brake side) and you can get a lightweight gas pedal from Neil and Parks for $45 and a Wilwood brake pedal/bracket for $73.42 from Jegs that will allow you to ditch the clunky bracket that he puts up alongside the bellhousing. Those are all retail prices available to anyone and I know how much less a builder pays if he is on jobber or wd pricing.
Sorry to keep harping on this deal but this guy is not the racer's friend as he professes to be--he is in it for the money and there are better options out there.
Roo
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I looked at these kits before I started my build.Looks like I am more than glad I had all of the extra's i wanted and decided that building my own from ground up.Not saying my way is quick,I'm proof thats not so.I do feel I will have better piece when done and at less cost.I think at last count i was at 1600 bucks in chassis and yea thats not counting time.Heck if not building car I would have been modifing Harley again and again anyway. as for money i would have spent more on Harley.
If not into the fabrication part,which most know I love.I would say buy a used,proven piece and drop a mild 600 or 700 hp motor into it and go play.
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I'm a hobby/weekend weld. I may buy some plans from S and W and building my own. Cost wise I imagine buying a roller is cheaper. But building would be a huge sorce of pride. Keeping my eyes open
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yes buying used can be cheaper in long run.For me it is matter of cash outlay at one time.For me the word save has always been big time 4 letter word.Too many interest and not enough money. Buying 400 or 500 worth of tubing at one time is easier than dropping 5k at one time. Plus as you stated the pride of I BUILT IT thing,even if its been s u p e r slow!
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Wideopen I agree with everything you said. Down to the too many interest and money
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One thing to consider is that for the first time, buying a car will get you to the track quicker. Builds take time to do right, and in the process things come up and add to delays. Are you going to feel the same way or have the funds a year or two from now? Screw pride of building it yourself- nobody cares. its about getting out there and racing.