FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: arush on February 26, 2017, 10:50:19 AM
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Once again, I come to this forum for wisdom.
I am really close to starting my first Hilborn 4 port, alcohol injected blower motor and would like to know the proper sequence (step by step) to starting and shutting it off.
The motor is 100% fresh and has only been ran for a few minutes with a carb/intake to break in the cam.
Is this even remotely close ?
Starting procedure - (this could be totally wrong)
(1) Mag switch "OFF".
(2) Open up fuel pump & turn motor over to check for oil pressure.
(3) Stop turning motor over.
(4) Open throttle and squirt some gas down into the ports.
(5) Close throttle, turn motor over for a few seconds and then turn "ON" the mag.
Shut Down procedure - (this could also be wrong)
(1) While motor is idling, shut off fuel pump.
(2) After motor stops running, turn "OFF" the mag.
As always, All feed back is greatly appreciated.
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I recommend doing things differently than you listed. Check for oil pressure in the pits with the spark plugs out of it. Leave the mag off and the fuel shut off and crank the motor. That way you will not kill your batteries.
There are variations but here is what I do
To start it...
Mag off, fuel on.
Open butterflies and squirt Alcohol into/past butterflies
shut butterflies
crank motor for about 2 seconds and turn on the mag.
As motor starts keep squirting alky into the injector until it runs on it's own. You can use gas if it is colder out. If you are priming with alky you can squirt in a lot of volume. The volume that you are putting in is small compared to what the nozzles will deliver.
Watch for oil pressure and any leaks. Keep track of the head temperature and idle speed
To shut it off...
Close fuel
engine rpm will come up and just as it starts to come back down, kill the mag.
If you are starting it for the very first time. I would leave the fuel off and just see if it fires smoothly on the primer first. That way you can tell if there are any ignition or timing issues.
Good luck!
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Appreciate your feedback Coupemerc.
Your recommendations make sense.
I am sure others may have a slight variation to this routine.
Just trying to get myself educated to this new set up.
Thanks.
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I used to fire the funnycar basically the same way coupemerc described, only difference is we squirted with gasoline
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Note that I edited my original post! Before you crank the motor to start it, fuel needs to be ON. Also, if you have aluminum blower studs do not over tighten them or they will crack. Also leave the blower belt a little loose when the engine is cold. Set the final blower belt tension when the engine is fully warmed up. Good luck
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Just before starting, should put a long ratchet in the top pulley a back the motor down to clear the cylinders just in case. Brings up another point, if you are using a block starter and not a blower starter, you should at least have the blower starter mount and drive dog installed. When the block starter fails, there is a chance to borrow the remote blower starter and fire the motor
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Appreciate your response Crider.
Bruce....Good point on the backing the motor down and installing the drive dog.
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I disagree with some of the posts, I don't fire my motor without oil pressure buildup and I don't turn on the mag if the motor isn't spinning, good way to backfire the motor and hurt the blower.
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I disagree with some of the posts, I don't fire my motor without oil pressure buildup and I don't turn on the mag if the motor isn't spinning, good way to backfire the motor and hurt the blower.
??????? As far as I can see everyone suggested just that--spin it with the mag off to get pressure and then spin it and flip the switch.
Personally, I never bother with the mag switch on shut down, just shut the fuel off and once it stops, ground the mag. In the NT/F car the motor usually quit on its own when I got off the right pedal and cut the air supply off. Once the chutes were out I would shut the fuel off and quite often I did not ground the mag until I made the turnout.
Roo
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I disagree with some of the posts, I don't fire my motor without oil pressure buildup and I don't turn on the mag if the motor isn't spinning, good way to backfire the motor and hurt the blower.
??? ??? ? As far as I can see everyone suggested just that--spin it with the mag off to get pressure and then spin it and flip the switch.
Here:
I recommend doing things differently than you listed. Check for oil pressure in the pits with the spark plugs out of it. Leave the mag off and the fuel shut off and crank the motor. That way you will not kill your batteries.
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Appreciate the feedback Draw 3D and Roo.
Roo, I net you at Bowling Green last year and hope to see you there this year.
I realize that you are very busy while you are there but I hope you could find a few minutes to check out my Digger.
Thanks.
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Draw3D,
all that coupemerc is suggesting is to get the oil through the motor before attempting to start it. We use exactly that procedure with Mark Vaught's 7.0 car. Roll the car out of the trailer and get it up on the jacks, pull the plugs and spin the motor until we see oil pressure. Put the warm up plugs in and fire the motor--with the galleries etc primed there is sufficient oil pressure by the time the engine lights off the squirt bottle and then begins running on the pump. We then switch to the race plugs and fire the same way on the line. Once the engine has been spun to get oil pressure the first time each day there is no need to spin it for more than a couple of seconds to get pressure and it takes that long to light anyway.
Roo
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Warm up plugs??? Ahhhh to be wealthy
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Warm up plugs??? Ahhhh to be wealthy
Smartarse!!! ;D
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Loving this thread, will be helpful for me once mines finished.
Just one question. What's the difference between warm up plugs and race plugs?
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An old set that us to be the run plugs! My warm up and run plugs are the same plugs
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Loving this thread, will be helpful for me once mines finished.
Just one question. What's the difference between warm up plugs and race plugs?
We keep an old set for the first fire up at an event. Mark "pickles" the motor after an event if we are not going to run for a bit and we put the old plugs in so that we don't foul the race plugs with any oil that is still in the top end of the motor. Spinning it to get oil pressure (with the plugs out) usually does the job but the old plugs are a bit of insurance.
Roo
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Back when I used to run TAD, we used a set of hotter champion N63DR plugs as warm up plugs. Our race plugs were N57DR. The thought was that the hotter plug would bring the engine up to temperature quicker during the warm up because of the hotter tip temperature. Eventually we stopped doing that (for cost reasons and limited benefits) and our warm up plugs eventually became what Roo described above.
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Installed a set of NGK B9ES ($1.79 O'Reilys) at the beginning of the season, ran them all year long, following season pulled and tossed in the trash, installed new ones
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Loving this thread, will be helpful for me once mines finished.
Just one question. What's the difference between warm up plugs and race plugs?
Apparently, Rich Man vs Poor Man.
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Draw3D,
all that coupemerc is suggesting is to get the oil through the motor before attempting to start it. We use exactly that procedure with Mark Vaught's 7.0 car. Roll the car out of the trailer and get it up on the jacks, pull the plugs and spin the motor until we see oil pressure. Put the warm up plugs in and fire the motor--with the galleries etc primed there is sufficient oil pressure by the time the engine lights off the squirt bottle and then begins running on the pump. We then switch to the race plugs and fire the same way on the line. Once the engine has been spun to get oil pressure the first time each day there is no need to spin it for more than a couple of seconds to get pressure and it takes that long to light anyway.
Roo
I think he is using a block mounted starter like I am and a block mounted starter turns the motor at a slow rpm and pushing 60 wt oil takes more than a couple of seconds to build up pressure.
I have a pretty good starter and it turns the motor over at between 250 to 300 rpm, that means my oil pump, which is internal in stock location, is turning at 125 to 150 rpm and if you spin for a couple of seconds, it will see 5 revolutions and on my system, it will not buildup to any usable pressure.
I don't start my motor until I see at least 25 psi oil pressure, I would much rather have a dead battery than a dead motor.
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I don't have it, but I like the idea of an oil filter head that can be primed with a drill. Peterson Fluid Systems (http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/filter_mount.html) makes them.
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Draw 3D,
I understand what you are saying but we have been doing this for around 17 years with two different cars and have never had a bearing issue. Yes, we do have a blower starter but the original injected version of the motor that Mark ran for several years had a regular unit. As the current block is a former sprint car piece it does not have an internal oil pump so we have always run a remote unit and because of that our oil path from the pump to the bearings has always been longer, initially with a belt driven dry sump pump and more recently with an RCD front drive unit.
When I spin it (with the plugs out) for the first time at an event it takes about 5-7 seconds to get full oil pressure (75+ lbs) but after that there are numbers on the dash by the time the motor actually lights at fire up. As long as the motor does not fire instantly at full throttle you should not have any problems.
Roo
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When we ran top alcohol cars.We would always get oil pressure firat thing every morning as soon as car was on jacks.Replace plugs wuth old run plugs that where warmup plugs.We would wait till close to run time if we had not pulled motor down and fire it up.Build some heat ,check for leaks,check vac at hat and bring it up to stage rpm.Shut everything down and we whwere ready to go for the day.
As for starting we pretty nuch did norm.Squirt fuel in hat,I would spin her over and pull mag wires a after cpl seconds.Had another crew member feeding it till pump took over.
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The procedures are about the norm for starting an engine. We also use a priming pump with a one-way ball check valve and it helps relieve ware and tear on the starter and battery. One additional thing thing that we do save time and fuel is after starting the car up to warm the engine is cut the fuel shut off back some. This allows the engine to warm up faster. We also try to not wack the throttle during warm up as over time it may cause the crank hub to split (blown application).
Regarding oiling, we put a dry sump pump under the engine and prime it with a 18v cordless drill prior to our warm up procedure. We make our own pumps and with the sump pan there is a little of room to fit the pump between the rails. Not much, but some. Once the oil lines are filled you should have instant pressure.
The pump is hard to see in this photo, but it's there.
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No one has mentioned preheating the oil on the first startup for the day.
Easier on the pump....gets everywhere quicker.
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Some of us don't need to because it doesn't get that cold and the engine diaper act's as a jacket, only a concern of running fresh 70wt
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Draw3D,
all that coupemerc is suggesting is to get the oil through the motor before attempting to start it. We use exactly that procedure with Mark Vaught's 7.0 car. Roll the car out of the trailer and get it up on the jacks, pull the plugs and spin the motor until we see oil pressure. Put the warm up plugs in and fire the motor--with the galleries etc primed there is sufficient oil pressure by the time the engine lights off the squirt bottle and then begins running on the pump. We then switch to the race plugs and fire the same way on the line. Once the engine has been spun to get oil pressure the first time each day there is no need to spin it for more than a couple of seconds to get pressure and it takes that long to light anyway.
Roo
I think he is using a block mounted starter like I am and a block mounted starter turns the motor at a slow rpm and pushing 60 wt oil takes more than a couple of seconds to build up pressure.
I have a pretty good starter and it turns the motor over at between 250 to 300 rpm, that means my oil pump, which is internal in stock location, is turning at 125 to 150 rpm and if you spin for a couple of seconds, it will see 5 revolutions and on my system, it will not buildup to any usable pressure.
I don't start my motor until I see at least 25 psi oil pressure, I would much rather have a dead battery than a dead motor.
We use a basic Summit brand block mounted starter but crank it with 24 volts...gets oil pressure quicker as well as get fuel moving from the pump. Most of these starter solenoids are rated at 36 volts, if yours isn't they're easy to come by. The actual starter motor itself is happier because it sees less load. If you're cranking with two batteries and they're not wired in series it's well worth a try.
As for oil pressure, I crank it with the plugs out in the morning before first fire up. After that I give it about a 3 count of cranking then fire it. Oil pressure comes up immediately.
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Just before starting, should put a long ratchet in the top pulley a back the motor down to clear the cylinders just in case. Brings up another point, if you are using a block starter and not a blower starter, you should at least have the blower starter mount and drive dog installed. When the block starter fails, there is a chance to borrow the remote blower starter and fire the motor
I'm sure its never a bad idea to back a hemi or any other motor down, but how effective is doing it on a wedge type combustion chamber? Would turning the engine with out spark plugs be an alternative?
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Just before starting, should put a long ratchet in the top pulley a back the motor down to clear the cylinders just in case. Brings up another point, if you are using a block starter and not a blower starter, you should at least have the blower starter mount and drive dog installed. When the block starter fails, there is a chance to borrow the remote blower starter and fire the motor
I'm sure its never a bad idea to back a hemi or any other motor down, but how effective is doing it on a wedge type combustion chamber? Would turning the engine with out spark plugs be an alternative?
Exactly. On any engine where the exhaust valve is well above the bottom of the chamber (as opposed to a hemi where it is generally at the lowest point) spinning the engine with the plugs out is the best idea. This is especially critical on a fuel burning motor where any residual fuel may have a catastrophic effect.
Roo
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Kind of hard to do in the lanes, just put he bar in and give it some insurance, besides it preps you for when you switch to nitro
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