FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Technical => Roo Man's Room => Topic started by: hemidakota on November 24, 2014, 07:54:28 PM
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I know this subject has been asked before but I'm torn on what to do. I really want to build my own fed. I am a large guy 6'3" 230 lbs. wide shoulders. It is difficult to find a chassis that I fit in comfortably. I would like to build a 6.0 cert chassis but there is so many directions to go. Who's kit is good, who's is not? Just get prints and bend all yourself? I do know I would like an open chassis with just a nose cone and simple body around driver. Don't really like torsion bar front ends, would lean more toward a pointed front end. Thinking starting with a kit would be much easier. I know this is not fair to ask if there is a better kit or not but any advice would be appreciated. I know there is so much more to it but this is a good place to start with this question I hope.
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In your case building would most likely be your best option due to your size and some of the chassis specifics that you list. The first thing that you need to buy is the relevant SFI spec so that you can make sure that the car will pass tech.
If you have access to a bender (and the skills to run it) a basic blueprint would most likely be your best option as you can adjust the dimensions to suit your size. Most kits will be a pile of straight tubing and a small collection of bends along with possibly a mid plate and maybe some tabs. In your case I would put the shoulder hoop a little higher than what will be the norm with most plans so that the roll cage does not end up too tall. Put the motor out far enough that the car will not have a tendency to wheelie--remember that your body weight is mostly behind the axle. Invest in (or borrow) a line up bar to keep the engine and rear end aligned. Search the net and find the Hot Rod Magazine story that details Don Long's construction of Ed Pink's Old Master as it has a lot of useful info that still applies some 50 years later. Mark Williams and Chassis Shop have front axles available off the shelf and shops like MW, McKinney, S & W, Chassis Shop and Neil and Parks will have all of the brackets and tabs that you need along with dragster specific components like mid plates.
If you don't have a jig or access to one you can still do it the way that Long did when he was starting out. Set the driveline up on a flat floor with the rear axle and motor where you want them and connect the dots. :) One way that works well for a one-off build is to make a base out of plywood (or similar) and screw/glue blocks of wood to it to locate the lower frame rails at ride height and work up from there using a marked centerline on the wood to keep things straight. Use a pre profiled motor plate and you will have the location for the upper rails as well. Sit on a block to locate your butt at the correct height with your legs draped over the rear end and have a friend measure to establish the height of the shoulder hoop. Use a good quality level to keep everything square and use the mid plate as a datum point for longitudinal measurements. Your shoulder hoop will be wider than the lower rails (unless you have a really big arse) so put the level vertical and measure in to center the hoop. A plumb bob hung off either side of the top hoop/rail is also a good way to make sure that the upper rails are centered.
Some of this may be TMI if you already have chassis building skills but I figured that this was a good chance to give some tips to any one else who is contemplating their own build.
Roo
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Thanks for the info. I am sure there will be more questions as this goes further. I appreciate the advice/info here. It is great that there is so many willing to share info/help along the way. It is an addiction that will never go away...
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You must as a novice all the pre-planning involved before you start laying out tubing and the realization that it takes an enormous amount of time to build a one-off. Magazines only show you 5% of the complete build process in 2 pages. There are no comprimises in building your own frame, at $3+ per foot of tubeing you must be willing to scrap a piece and start over because you missed a fitment and not just cover it with bad weld . The basic frame is an easy build, its all the little crap that takes time. Running tunnles through motorplate uprites takes only minutes if put into process in the beginning, but hours if it is an afterthought. You can most deffinatly build your own frame and I incourage it, But when you are paying a chassie shop to build it for you, what you are paying for is the builders knowlege of the process
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Yes, Long built many chassies on the floor of his shop, however he did build many cars and they were very simple cars compared to the required spec chassies of today. To build todays chassie on the floor as he did and for a novice would add 52.3% to the already difficult factors involved. Building a fixture to get it up off the ground would make things so much bertter and give you a quality product, but that takes more time and money added to the build, but that to is also added into the pro builders price tag
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" Building a fixture to get it up off the ground would make things so much bertter and give you a quality product, but that takes more time and money added to the build, but that to is also added into the pro builders price tag".
Exactly, Bruce and that answers the question " Why do you guys charge so much when I can by a kit for $xx from S & W" (or whoever). A real chassis shop has a lot of money invested in jigging and fixtures, not to mention the years of experience to know how to build the car and the overhead of running a business, on top of the labor cost to actually put the car together.
Roo
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I built most of mine and if I could do it over, I would get as most done by a builder as possible or buy a used one and modify it as necessary.
Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed it but the amount of forming, shaping and welding tools required are pretty large and expensive and learning to use them properly was time consuming.
Either way, good luck
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Roo,
The big question is----How many of these "KITS" have been sold and completed and are not just sitting around in someones garage half done because the buyer discovered how much hard work it really took to build.
Its just like a gym membership---at first you are all hot to go and then you stop going when the hard work begins
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If you should decide to buy a used FED, I know of a few.
Call, 805-444-4489
Jon, Hayden Wheels
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Roo,
The big question is----How many of these "KITS" have been sold and completed and are not just sitting around in someones garage half done because the buyer discovered how much hard work it really took to build.
Its just like a gym membership---at first you are all hot to go and then you stop going when the hard work begins
True story Bruce. Our buddy Worm talks of selling 150 cars but IF he has moved that many most of them are still in someone's garage partly built as I don't see anywhere near that many at the track. And think of all the Alston/Art Morrison etc door car packages that are in the 'too hard" basket. Even getting from a tack welded kit to a car that you can take to the track is a stretch for most people. You know the deal, you start on a new car and the customer comes in after you get the basic car laid out and is impressed with your progress. Then you start fitting it out with all the detail stuff and get accused of putting the car on the back burner because the customer does not realize that there is way more time in the little stuff than the basic frame package.
Roo
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"OUR"????
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You know he's YOUR buddy Bruce.
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I have an actual Hot Rod book that shows how to build many types of cars from the 60 s. Its not 8 1/2 X 11, but smaller. Found it on E-bay some years ago. The dragster that is shown in great detail being constructed is" The Old Master ". Don Long is shown in many pics building the car. Has the actual blueprints in the article. The text of the article is VERY detailed! Shows step by step how the car was layed out on the shop floor. An interesting note;Don didnt bend the tubing for his cars back then. The company he used is named in the write-up! A great amount of detail about how the engine angle was determined and why. Gives details on the finished car as it was first run @ the Strip.That car was a Clutch Can Car-no tranny/no reverser! I compared some of the pics in my book to a few pics in the Hot Rod article, they are one in the SAME.
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alkyal,
I have that little paperback as well and it is very informative in a lot of areas. The Don Long Willys build also had a lot of good tip/ideas.
Roo
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The major bends were pre-bent by H&L metals, but there were some bends that Don had to do himself with a torch to heat bend the tubing. Some bend angles were so slight that to bend them on a machine one would have to use a 5 ft dia bending die to keep the bend from crushing at the start. By heating a 6-8 inch area of the tubing and pulling it over by hand give you a non deformed slight bend. Done wrong could wind up a disaster
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You know he's YOUR buddy Bruce.
Never bought me dinner
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I have first hand experience on building a S and w kit from the beginning and was surprised how long and cost and time consuming it actually is taking. I'm presently mounting the body, but my kit arrived last November and i thought it would be rolling by last new years but it has taken me a full year to get to wear I am. The frame kit was good and even though this is my first dragster build I have built a couple of show winning hot rods and I was amazed at how much stuff there was to do, as Rooman said. Brackets , tabs and making everything work is fairly time consuming and costly. I spend a fair amount of time on it every day and quite a bit of money on all the little stuff and was just looking at my bill yesterday for my dzuz fasteners and associated hardware and that alone and cost me 250 bucks. If i did it again I would probably buy, but it is also pretty nice when you can say you built your own. But in the end I fired it up in less than a year and ready to run for this spring.
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I have built two FED's my first one had quite a few design flaws as I had a look I wanted to go for (think pointy nose) and it just didn't work to well with the HP levels I eventually threw at it, it did great in the 8.20's-8.60's but not to well in the mid 7's. My next car I spent 3 months on from start to finish and that was a full time job after my full time job. I would love to build another new car just don't have the spare time anymore........
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First of all Happy Thanksgiving to all...
So thanks for all the input and thanks to Hayden for the phone time and input. I have been involved in a few door car builds just never a dragster. We do have a jig and all the necessary equipment for building a chassis. So I have decided to take the time and build. Is there any particular blueprint anyone recommends? Was thinking of purchasing a couple to study and work with. From what I have read and been told the S&W is on the heavy side, the MW appears to be fairly good print. Did find and print off the don long article you all talked about. And dreracecar I do go to the gym 5 days a week and have for a long time so giving up is not an option.....
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(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x423/hemidakota/Picture007-1.jpg)
This is my dad's latest build. The Merpar.
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Dave Tuttle use to offer a kit/blue print to build his chassis, not sure if he stil does this or not.
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i have the SW prints , they are pretty detailed with a few bend pages , front axle page , and a few big prints with location for rear , engine , etc ... i think there 100.00 and worth every penny .
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Yes, I have heard Dave sells plans also, our car was build by Dave in 1997. Dave's number is 530-547-2402 or 208-549-1500, dragsters@earthlink.net.
You could call Neil & Parks, 785-654-3440, they also sell plans, and good ones at that.
Jon
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I would buy a set of Parks plans for sure his cars work!
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I have built two FED's my first one had quite a few design flaws as I had a look I wanted to go for (think pointy nose) and it just didn't work to well with the HP levels I eventually threw at it, it did great in the 8.20's-8.60's but not to well in the mid 7's. My next car I spent 3 months on from start to finish and that was a full time job after my full time job. I would love to build another new car just don't have the spare time anymore........
Can you elaborate a little further? Explain more about your design flaws?
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The best plans available are from SFI. There is no MAGIC any of this. There are no plans out there of a superior design thats works better that others--- they all basicly work the same
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On my first car I had the upper and lower frame rail to close together which mad the car very flexible but that is not a good thing the car was very squirrelly
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Well I have ordered an sfi chassis spec 2.4c and have talked to Parks and Tuttle, both very informative and funny as can be. I have really enjoyed all of this and thanks for all the input. Everyone has a different opinion but all build the same thing to an extent. This is going to be a blast to do and cannot wait to get started. Now just need to make a plan and stick to it. Good luck with that right?
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Look up dragster supply on the internet he sells a great kit and lots of little tabs and componants which will make your build easier David Beard is a great guy and easy to work with. He does a lot of work here in the northeast and can custom build anything you need also his prices are great. dragstersupply.com He has done two cars for me using my componants and constructing the cars to various stages so I could do a lot of the work myself. You will not be disappointed.