Where to Start

[swilling]

Hey Guys - i did some searching and couldnt really find much specific to my question.

Looking at getting into building a fed.  Im a hot rodder who's built and restorted a couple Muscle cars, Pontiacs mostly and a Mopar project about to get underway.  Build my own engines and trannys, do all my own welding and fabrication and just starting to dabble in machine work.

My first goal would be to build my own from a chassis kit, and run an N/A budget iron headed Pontiac stroker. I have all the engine parts laying around no sweat.

I'm not looking to go so fast i could time travel just yet.  Just want to get into the hobby and learn and understand, then go from there, and most importantly have fun building and tuning the car. Also looking forward to attempting to build the Sheet metal skins from scratch as i love that kind of stuff.

Where do i go from here, i see a few chassis kits around, while i undesrstand the regulations have changed and so have what is now a certifiable chassis but who makes the most period correct appearing  chassis?

forgive me fro the newb questions, but hoping to start buying end of htis year and building through next summer.   Just want to learn and have fun building something cool. 

Cheers
Sam

[Supercat]

Sam welcome.
I would look for a chassis that will get you going. Find the shape you want and buy it. Take it to see what et it is safe for and what changes need to be made to upgrade et.
I bought a mid 60s 148" Fed with a magnesium body knowing it was not anything more than a history piece.
My wife and I will be using it this winter as a pattern chassis.
We will incorporate the new SFI changes and use chromoly pipe to make a period correct car that is safe.

You should be able to find a decent chassis to build from.
Trust me the upgrades alone will make you feel like you built the car .
What size Pontiac are you going with.
Here is our Buick 455 FED that my wife and I put together.

[dreracecar]

There is so much that goes into building a dragster chassis correctly that the wise move is to have one built by someone that is tooled up for it already and then you can do the rest if you like.
 To a newby even with thinwall CM welding skills, not welding in proper temp, fitment, sequence will become a disaster. More time is spent on fixtures, lineup bars, mockup engines, trans, rear end housing, getting to the starting point of laying the first piece of tubing in place, then it does to build the frame.
 Investment in a SFI 2.4 spec chassis book ($35) is where you should start. building to any other spec is a waste unless you plan to run Fuel. The difference between 2.4 and the 2.6 (7.50 and slower) is less that $100 worth of tubing and in my opinion, easier to build.
 Find a local builder, it requires a couple visits by you to size it right for you body type.
 Most builders have their own idea on what traditional is and will push their ideas on you because thats what they are tooled up for, but there are some of us that understand what you are looking for and will make every attempt to fulfil you desire.
 Other than that a good choice is to find something already out there and modify to suit. With that, you can develop a sense of likes and dislikes to put forward into a new build. If going that way, do not consider a used car unless there is a NHRA/SFI sticker on it, can be out of date, but it must be stickered

[nostalgic371]

I really agree with the responses above, you will be way ahead on money and time if you can find a tagged car that can modified just a bit to suit your needs. If not, do give a lot of consideration to having one built by a reputable shop, you will still have a lot of satisfaction finishing one you receive as a roller, I also feel they re-sell better if you later decide some day to move on.

[masracingtd1167]

I am Sure any one of the chassis guys on here will build you a car in any stage that you want and then you could finish it the way that you want to !

[swilling]

Supercat -

Thank you! , i see what you're saying.   the little i could find seemed like everyone avoided original chassis at all costs.  Good to know you are able to keep it in the game with some upgrades!

would be a 4.25 stroke cast crank that would put me at 461. i have a few spare poncho blocks tucked away. I could run this crank in a 400 with the smaller mains than a 455 and should be more than enough for me to get a feel and understanding of what im doing. I even have a stock stroke 400 i could probably throw at it first time around. I like the thought of creeping up in CI and compression, and just seeing how things would improve. I'll probably say it again here im sure but i just love to geek out on numbers and theorizing.

Wow so cool to see a Buick! i already love the FED guys just because theres always a nice collective of the more odball engines, and of course lots of BOP stuff. Very cool!

Thanks!

Dreracecar -
Thanks! im starting to feel confident with my Tig skills that i can get a nice fitment and weld on some CM tubing But i do understand the merits of a Jig - i guess my mind was thinking that most of the old timers built theirs on a garage floor and were running a lot faster than id probably ever go.  Forgive my ignorance, i guess the whole building from a kit mindset gave me the assumption i would learn a real lot along the way and have an even better understanding of measurements and geometry and why things work and why things dont.

Thank you! im ordering the book today! interesting between 2.4 and 2.6 being so simple - but man i think id need a change of pants if i ever ran 7.50s 

Good tip on the sticker. Thank you!

Nostalgic371 -
The time thing is certainly not a problem, i spent 6 months (weekends only due to my job) scratch building headers for my GTO, i spent more money and time of course than buying a 450 dollar set that would do fine. But for me, the fun comes from time spent in the garage, listening to music hanging with my dog and just turning a wrench or cutting some tubing. for me the journey of the build is certainly more rewarding than the finished product.  I'm really thinking talking to a shop is a great idea at this point. Thank you!

Masracingtd1167 -
Thanks, another good point, as obviously all you guys here "Get" what im trying to do.


So - thank you all again - a huge help already.  Its hard to find info or help about this stuff. I'm 35 years old, and absolutely zero of my friends are interested in cars or engine building, and its really hard to find like minded people who i could bounce ideas and learn from.

I did stumble across these guys and liked the idea that everything is already tacked on a Jig - would this be an adviseable route? http://www.slingshotdragsters.com/kits.html

That said, would anyone know of a Chassis builder in Nor Cal? i like the idea of getting something maybe quite bare but still to my size (i'm 6'1 190).  I am located in Sonoma county. Sears Point is my local track.  I think finding someone close by i could chat with, who also "gets it" would be great.  Again, for me personally, its gotta be cool. I know i could already buy one of the many local rear engine dragsters complete ready to race off Craigslist and save time and money. But thats not for me, even if i never ran as fast as anything i could buy. Its just gotta cool, a little more period correct and just fun to create. These things were absolute pieces of Art as far as im concerned.

Lastly i know its probably a much larger question than can be answered in a few sentances. But as far as wheelbase. Where do i start, where do i go.  Obviously, the shorter the gnarlier the thing must be when running quick. But again i know nothing about this stuff, is there a standard length that most of you guys run, or does it depend on power and what you're trying to achieve, wheres a good starting point for someone who knows nothing about this, and never driven one?  Apologies again this is probably a horrible question to  expect a simple answer for. But im just trying to start somewhere.

Thank you all again.
Cheers
Sam!

Thank you all again, i can't say how excited i am just to hear from you guys. Appreciate it all

[Supercat]

Sam I would go around 180" to 200" as for stability.
I have driven 170mph 94" wheel base cars and had my hands full.
The first Fed I drove was mine at 200" and 145mph loved it next Fed was a top fuel 200"-225" that Roo built for Dan Horan Sr. .
2nd 1/8th mile pass in licensing was a 198mph run.
I had found my calling for what I wanted......
Bruce could help you out as there are also many like him that live on the west coast.
I would give him or Roo a call to add to your education.
As they say where I live. "They are good people".
Good luck.

[dreracecar]

2.4 and 2.6 cost the same to SFI tag every 3 years

 My car runs 7.0Pro, its 193" wheelbase because if I wanted it longer I would have to buy 4 lengths of 1 1/4 for the front rails instead of 2 that I cut in half and where they came together--- that determind my wheelbase. ANY wheelbase car will handle great if it is built right, if it does not, then its junk.
 The general rule is the shorter the wheelbase, the wider the front axle. Short WB and a narrow front axle is when handling becomes an issue, I also build 100" nostalgia fuel altereds, that handle and go straight, but the front axle is wide.
 Back in the day cars were built on the floor with nothing but chaulk lines and  2 x 4's but things have changed since then. One could easily build a frame in a week because there was not that much tubing involved, With having to build with specs and all the tubing now required, it takes a week just to weld it. besides Im too old to be crawling on the floor.
Kit cars are great for the companys that provide them. They sell them to those people trying to save money by not having a shop do it, all is great and the entusiatm is high till they realize the amount of work it takes and the shortfalls of the kit. Not by any means am I putting you in this catogory, I dont know you or your qualifcations, Im going by what shows up at the swapmeet or at my front door asking for help. Kits provide the exact amount tubing for the build, some people need double the tubing to cover mistakes. Even with doing this for over 20+ years, I have a box of mistakes under the bench that I use for shorter parts

[dreracecar]

Lots of discussion on that "slingshotdragster" chassis on this board--- most of it not very good

[JrFuel Hayden]

Sam, I just got called from one of my JrFuel customers that wants to sell everything he has, including a chassis that looks like it would fit you, with the motor location of 42" from the rear axle to the back of the motor, that he took anything bolted on to build a new chassis with the motor out 52" . So what's missing is the seat, rear-end housing, the bolt on "A" arms, spindles, steering box, and front nose body, wheels altho he has 3 sets of rear wheels and 2 sets of wire spoke wheels. I'm sure he'll sell it inexpensive, the good news for you is he is in NAPA Calif, with-in eye shot of the Sonoma Dragstrip.
So most of your welding would be done, yes the chassis cert has expiered, but can be certed, it has run in the 6's.
Call me if you are interested,
Jon 805-444-4489, cell 

[swilling]

Sam I would go around 180" to 200" as for stability.
I have driven 170mph 94" wheel base cars and had my hands full.

170 on a 94" !!! wow, that sounds like an absolute blast! surprised you could even fit your balls in that car, let alone the rest of you 

thanks for the info, the 180-200 range is good to know, i also seem to like the look of the shorter cars just by preference.

2.4 and 2.6 cost the same to SFI tag every 3 years

 My car runs 7.0Pro, its 193" wheelbase because if I wanted it longer I would have to buy 4 lengths of 1 1/4 for the front rails instead of 2 that I cut in half and where they came together--- that determind my wheelbase. ANY wheelbase car will handle great if it is built right, if it does not, then its junk.
 The general rule is the shorter the wheelbase, the wider the front axle. Short WB and a narrow front axle is when handling becomes an issue, I also build 100" nostalgia fuel altereds, that handle and go straight, but the front axle is wide.
 Back in the day cars were built on the floor with nothing but chaulk lines and  2 x 4's but things have changed since then. One could easily build a frame in a week because there was not that much tubing involved, With having to build with specs and all the tubing now required, it takes a week just to weld it. besides Im too old to be crawling on the floor.
Kit cars are great for the companys that provide them. They sell them to those people trying to save money by not having a shop do it, all is great and the entusiatm is high till they realize the amount of work it takes and the shortfalls of the kit. Not by any means am I putting you in this catogory, I dont know you or your qualifcations, Im going by what shows up at the swapmeet or at my front door asking for help. Kits provide the exact amount tubing for the build, some people need double the tubing to cover mistakes. Even with doing this for over 20+ years, I have a box of mistakes under the bench that I use for shorter parts

absolutely - appreciate the explination of how you came to that length, great to know that theres still some basic hot rodding theory of "its what i had" applied. Just from what you mentioned i already am noticing in pictures of Altereds and shorter wheel base vs wider front axle. learning so much already. Appreciate it.   Also understand what you're saying with all the unfinished and problematic builds.  Im well aware of how easy mistakes are made, and also how much ive learned from them. I reaplced a full quarter twice, on my GTO and then tought myself to do the lead work, just because i like to punish myself. Again the Journey for me is really really where my heart is at. Of course until i drive one of these things, then i'll probably want to do nothing but actually race.  Is there any kind of formula to length vs front axle width? or just a case of if its short, make it wide!  ?

Lots of discussion on that "slingshotdragster" chassis on this board--- most of it not very good

Thanks i did a few searches i found one topic that i read through - but definitly will do more reading and searching. Cheers

Call me if you are interested,
Jon 805-444-4489, cell 

An absolute pleasure talking with you Jon - Thank you!!

So my next question again just to get my head around things - and like anything no simple answer im sure. but im just eating up all the knowledge i can while you guys are willing to post stuff.

2 Questions -
Whats up with Engine Rake -  like some of the old fuelers i see had the engine at a serious rake - it looks cool as %#$ my only thoughts on it are trying to keep a lower center of gravity while having a really tall tire, forces the rear axle higher and instead of raising the engine on a straight plain, the rear has been tilted up to still run straight to the center section on the differential.   Most of thre newer feds i see built do not have any kind of rake to the engine - why did it go away?

Trans/Driveline - i see some of the older fuel cars look like they just ran a clutch/bellhousing then straight to the differential - was that it? and then it was just all gear ratio/rpm at the end of the day? Is that why a lot of the older Cars look like the engine is MUCH closer to the rear axle? The newer stuff seems like the engine sits much further down the car.

But i see a lot of newer builds and people using powerglides.  Did people used to run these cars just direct or am i seeing things wrong, was a transmission always used? Are all you guys now running transmissions? 

please answer as much or as little as anyone cars to, nobody likes a newbie but i just want to learn and understand, again there is nobody i know who touches this stuff.

Thank you all,
Cheers
Sam

[noslin]

please answer as much or as little as anyone cars to, nobody likes a newbie but i just want to learn and understand, again there is nobody i know who touches this stuff.

Thank you all,
Cheers
Sam

some dont like newbies as they ask a lot of questions but that is what the forum is for right!!!  questions make the forum grow, the community expand, and helps guys like me out who are in the same boat. 

great questions your asking.  i dont know the history either but it sure is interesting to learn about it.   i can not believe what some guys drove back in the day.   they have balls of steel haha.

ty
dean

[dreracecar]

There is no science in rake. It is the relation of how far the motor is out in front of the rear end and the clearance of the front of the oil pan to the ground. The further back along the driveshaft center line the more angle the engine achieves,the further out the more of the angle is reduced.
A powerglide is the most common installed drivline in drag cars today,but never was considered in the early days

[JrFuel Hayden]

Sam, I'm not a chassis builder, but I have been racing dragsters since 1962. Ya, I raced  with a flag man, before the trees. My 1'st JrFueler was a short wheel base all iron 301ci SBC high gear car where I just rev it up pop the clutch and smoke the tires [ to keep the RPM up] to about 1/2 track, on nitro. We ran 8.0's and 191mph in 1964.  It was the best of times racing every weekend at about 4 differnt tracks around Wisc.and Rockford Ill.
The reason for the extreme engine rakes, and motor placement so far back was all this was before VHT, Slipper clutches, sticky tires that helped make the slippers work.
Now the cars run allot quicker with VHT, better tires, and they adjust the chutches and timers to keep the engine in the RPM they want for max performance.
I know it doesn't make total sense to have the motor so far back [ = more traction] and then also tilt the motor down [ = less traction] but it's all about the combination.
It looks like the modern NTF cars have the motor out like 46 to 50", again to help keep the RPM in the range the motors is happy. Keep in mind the more we modify the motors, ie bigger flowing heads, big cams that make more power at higher RPM's the narrower the peak HP is happy.
 A number of JRFuelers are running 50-54" out, mostly because they are making less torque but more HP, so they build them that way to keep the motor from pulling down out of the best RPM range.
That's why I think the chassis we talked about I think will work good for you, because with you big Pontiac, you will be making allot more torque, than my 48" out SBC on alky making 870HP that we run 7.0's at 188-9 MPH, with a powerglide, and a converter that stalls 8600 rpm.  Most jrfuelers run the 31x12x15 Goodyear, only a couple run a 33x12x15, but I think it's because the motors are out too far and they don't have enough rear static weight so they need a bit more bite, but the down side to the 8lbs heavier per tire, takes more power to over come the rotating weight.
It's all about the combination that will work with your parts.
Jon 

[noslin]

Sam, I'm not a chassis builder, but I have been racing dragsters since 1962. Ya, I raced  with a flag man, before the trees. My 1'st JrFueler was a short wheel base all iron 301ci SBC high gear car where I just rev it up pop the clutch and smoke the tires [ to keep the RPM up] to about 1/2 track, on nitro. We ran 8.0's and 191mph in 1964.  It was the best of times racing every weekend at about 4 differnt tracks around Wisc.and Rockford Ill.

Jon,
back in this era the trans was manual i take it?  or was there no clutch at all.  you were pushed and then popped in gear like shifting car without clutch (daily driver)?

ty
dean