engine location

[noslin]

225" fed, bbc with glide (if that matters).   for now n/a, maybe blown down the road.   whats the consensus on motor location. 

ty
dean

[JrFuel Hayden]

What class ?, what rules ?, 1/4 or 1/8 mile ? heads -up or bracket, or dial-in, ? , just alky ?, carb or injection ?, great tracks or not so good ?, car weight with driver ?, 1500lbs or 1800 lbs ? Weight on front, back ?  What size tire ?
  Poorer track, motor back more, blower motor back more, heavy driver motor a little further out. 
Our 7.0 JF car with driver, with the all iron SBC or Hemi injected on pure alky 1435 lbs with SBC and 1475 lbs with Hemi is 48" from rear motor plate to center of rear axle. Scott Parks SBC is 54" out, with short stroke 387 ci engine, they have built a motor out 60" for a heavier driver with short stoke 387" SBC racing in A/ND.

JON

[Van]

I put my motor at 48 & if I was going to do it again it would be 52 - 54

[ricardo1967]

What class ?, what rules ?, 1/4 or 1/8 mile ? heads -up or bracket, or dial-in, ? , just alky ?, carb or injection ?, great tracks or not so good ?, car weight with driver ?, 1500lbs or 1800 lbs ? Weight on front, back ?  What size tire ?
  Poorer track, motor back more, blower motor back more, heavy driver motor a little further out. 
Our 7.0 JF car with driver, with the all iron SBC or Hemi injected on pure alky 1435 lbs with SBC and 1475 lbs with Hemi is 48" from rear motor plate to center of rear axle. Scott Parks SBC is 54" out, with short stroke 387 ci engine, they have built a motor out 60" for a heavier driver with short stoke 387" SBC racing in A/ND.

JON

Motor 60" out! That's more like a Mid Engine Dragster to me. But I know that's all for performance. Just love the looks of old diggers.

[wideopen231]

I put mine at 49" out. Mainly due to advice from that Parks guy.He suggested 52" but at the time with what had been built with frame 49 was as clos I could get it.Running 526" Hemi with 4.5" crank and alky injected for now. How well its working I can't really say only had cpl hits and tires are not new or what I'm told would be better suited.

It may not look like the old cars with motor way back,but it performs better I am good with that.

[dreracecar]

If there was a formula to figure this out all cars would be the same
 
 I put my motor out 39" because I'm cheap and did not want to spend money on extra couplers and shafts which adds slop to the driveline. Coupler in the trans to the coupler on the R/E.  1.07 60' and hitting the 7.0 index--- LEARN how to make it work

  The reality is that the front motor cars that we try to represent were only around for 6-7 years and were in constant evolution because they were raced every weekend. That gave the racer a lot of oppertunity to expirement and change.  Now jump 30 years ahead when the modern front motor cars began to come back. The evolution at that point was hampered by only being able to race on a qualified track surface was limited to 3-4 times a year (still does).  When a builder says that they tested and found that having motor out 47.634" is where it should be, That means that he built the car with that dimension and had no problems. Now another builder puts the engine out 49.331" out and wins the next race, Does that mean that the first car go back to the shop and have the motor out increased 1.697" --NO
   Far too many variables to conclude proper placement of the engine as Jon mentioned, But for me personally  as a builder, I prefer the engine back for any type of Index racing as it consentrates the weight on the rear tires. Moving the engine weight forward between the front and rear tires gives the motor and chassis more spring, now you bang the tranny brake into the stage beam and the engine starts to bounce and now the load changes when you release the brake depending on weather the motor is going up or down. Until somebody builds a car that can change motor location in 1" increments and be able to do 6 hot lap passes while testing  at the same track and do the same at another track in order to compare notes, there is really no absolute answer -just opinion and you have mine

[H.G. Wells]

Bruce, I do not always agree with everything you say but, that explanation was spot on.

Mine is 43 out, but somewhat by accident. Was intended to be 40 for the same reason as you, till we moved the rear end. Someone who is more sophisticated than I and can gather data and test changes may be able to show why a blown hemi needs a different placement than an injected SBC, but I am with you in that there are other things to change and make work with any combination.
My last chassis worked as an injected SBC, but would not hook with the blown BBC. Had nothing to do with the engine placement or even the chassis, and everything to do with converter, tire and wheelie bar. 

When I built my first FED I joked that if I asked 12 different people a question on how to do something I would get 13 different answers. And most of them are right.

[LZ]

Hello Dean:

Just my stupid opinion from what I have seen and heard with concerns to this along the way.

A big consideration in this equation is you say your running a Glide now (short?). But what down the road you may have to consider is if you decide to go to a clutch or different trans ( on your down the road combo)  and all that wraps around that. Serviceability, Clutch pedal, getting trans out of car without moving engine. etc bla bla bla.

Important also to consider resale of your car. Someone else may have a combination needing the room and or pedal, lever brake mounts. Maybe little things but could mean a sale in these declining drag race times. If thats important to you.

Sounds like your building a car and that leaves you the chance to make the car for you and to consider its new owner when time comes.

make sense? Not the beast at putting thoughts to words.
Thanks and shout out to someone I am lucky enough to call friend for working- experiencing issues such as this
Thanks Matt (frontenginedragsters)
 Luke

[masracingtd1167]

When Frank and Scott built my car it was back in 2002 and at that time they were building them at 36 inches out and that's where mine is . If I were to build a new car I guess it would be with the motor a little further out . As Bruce said there is no magic formula for this and you have to make it work for you and your combo !I have raced mine for over 10 years now and have made my car work quite well ! I have also made a lot of mistakes along the way . You have to keep working at it !

[noslin]

thank you all for your replys.   the immediate goal is NE1  and then 7.0 Pro.    will prob run a 454.. 460.. or whatever the engine will work out to be in that area first and run NE1.  it will be a MFI setup, non blown.   we will be racing at sac and Bakersfield, tnt at redding (home).  redding is not the best but its 2 miles from my house and we can at least run the car down the track, make some laps and learn.  looking at schedules, there is three races at sac we could hit and MM and CHRR.   i expect (guess) car with driver non-blown to be about 1600lbs.   i dont know what these things are supposed to weigh so im guessing 1600 with driver.  i weigh probably 210 suited up. (weigh 200 if i can lay off the cookies and cake)

my plan is for as LZ noted, looking at resale value.  with that in mind, it will be built to 2.2c sfi spec.   will have 2 chutes, 2 fire bottles, etc.   rear isnt a floater right now but if we do go a/fuel then of course it will be along with whatever else is needed to run that class.

we have been doing heads up racing in the vw world and talked about maybe trying a/fuel down the road with a blown setup.  then as mentioned, that would require a whole different  engine, trans, rearend package.   i doubt it will happen but you never know. 

in talking with the builder, i think he is about 52".. ill have to ask again as i did not write that down on my notes.  i thought i would just ask for opinions. 

thank you all again for your input.
Dean

   

[dreracecar]

2.4 spec is plenty,  it allows you to run down to 6 sec and a decent size tire because if you plan to sell it a a fuel chassis the rear end and engine plates will have to be re-located because of the spec tire size (smaller).
Now
 If you want to make it 2.2 spec capable , cross reference 2.2 and 2.4 where it applys to same components and match dia and wall thickness, but leave any extra tubes that the 2.2 spec calls out for and worry about those at a later time.
 Honestly I think you need to go out and buy a car first and start running it
1) its going to be cheaper then building new
2) will prepare you to what changes the new car needs later
3) get you racing so much sooner, If you dont have enough bank to buy a very decent used car now, It will take you a year or two to finance and build new car--- and things change in those 1-2 years

[gregm784]

FWIW, mine is 37 1/2 out, i wish it was about 45.  I'm a fatty and i have 70# on the bow to offset the rear end ballast (me).  3.625 stroke blown small block, NE/1 car

[JrFuel Hayden]

Well, my thoughts on engine location has more to do about the kind of power your combo will make. A number of racers suggestions here are talking under 40", which might be race cars built in the 60's, and maybe TF, when tires and tracks didn't have as much bite as now. Also most of the talk has been SBC motors. If you are going to run 454-460 BBC you will be making more torque than SBC, so I would think your motor needs to be a little farther back than the 52-60" out combo's.
If you have time, you might want to come to Bakersfield for the Hot Rod Reunion , Oct 20-23, and look at the 7.0 cars running BBC.  You might also talk to Dave Tuttle, [ 530-547-2402]  he is near you and has built not only our JF [ 48" out, iron SBC], but the winnest A/F car also near you,  the Bates/Adams injected Nitro Hemi. I would think your unblown BBC on alky would run 7.0's.  Art [RIP] and Mike Chrisman ran a 399 ci BBC , all iron, JrFuel car a couple of years ago, and they ran 7.30's with it about 150-200lbs over weight. I told Art and Mike they could build a bigger motor, now that they increased the max engine size from 410 ci to 430 ci, I would put a longer stroke in it, like 427 ci, which would help them make weight, [ 3.5 lbs/ ci] and help build enough compression, alky likes high compression.
If you would be interested in running JrFuel, please call me , 805-444-4489, we have a good program and great helpful teams, along with sponsors for the JrFuelDragsterAssociation. If you should decide to run JF you can also race B/ND in Comp Elim, besides working your way up thru NE-1, 7.0 Pro and JF.   
Bruce [ dre] is right buying a used dragster will be cheaper and faster to race. BTW there is a great FED car near Sonoma for sale for allot less than what it would cost to build. It's a west coast copy of a Neil & Parks JF, Frank Parks agreed to advise Bob Lander as long as Bob was going to build a JFB car and not JFA like Frank and Scott were racing. It is light , like 1355 lbs with the 165 lb driver and an all iron 387 ci SBC, and has run 6.96. The complete roller is for sale with or with-out the incomplete SBC. Bob Lander is in Sebastopol Ca, 707-486-9875. It might be a good combo for you with the motor out 50", and since Bob built it, if you would need some mods he could handle it.  Again call me I may know of another car for sale, that is around 42" out.
Jon Hansen, Hayden Wheels & JfDragsterAssociation.

[noslin]

thank you for the replies.  i understand the simplicity of buying a roller that has been on the track already.  i have searched a little bit on the net for other roller FED's.   as it stands right now, i think i can build a roller for about the same total out-of-pocket cost (or cheaper by hair) then to buy someone elses car and have it modified to fit me and or the cost of picking one up out of state (shipping).  im 6'5" 205lb.   so, anything i get ill have to have it modified for me.  there is one for tall guy in texas, thats going to be a 5000 mile round trip, time off work, etc.. that would cost me 3k by the time i make the trip and back.   right now as a roller, ill be less then 20k.  i have all the electronics already from past projects and just need the mechanical fuel stuff (hat, valves, j block, cans, etc), trans, torque converter;  my buddy is handeling the motor details.   nevertheless, im having Bill Comstock build me one new.   although Tuttle is 5 miles from my house, i like Bill and will use him to build the chassis.   I have been down the road of buying a used car, i ended up totally redoing anyways and that is the other reason i want to have a new one. 

Mr. Hayden, i am familiar a little bit with the A fuel, my buddy Steve (with the nitro vw FED), has talked about Jr Fuel too with the rules, a, b, c classes.  i haven't looked into either much as not at that point.  never thought about being able to run a different nhra class such as B/ND, thank you for mentioning that.

man, all heads up classes are very competitive, shoot the stories i hear of even the index racing with qualifying etc are super competitive.   definitely will be excited to even make any of the index fields, that would be an awesome goal first.  then to make one round haha. 

ty
dean

[Paul New]

Bill builds some nice altereds my buddy Todd owns one and has run AA/AM and drives a second one AA/FA he ran a 6.08 last weekend