Incoherent ramblings of troubled and confused mind.

[retroboy]

I wasn't going to post here because some of the things here are pretty high end but I need some Fuel Injection 101.
I’m too old to learn new stuff, hang on this technology is older than me.  It’s simple right a pump pushes fuel to a nozzle and that gives us one of the three things we need fuel compression and spark.  Trouble is we will have too much fuel at lower speeds if we have enough at higher speeds  –the solution is to bleed some back to the tank. Easy. How much we will determine by a restriction in the return line. Get it? Got it. Well it sounds pretty straight forward. So how come I’ve lost the plot to the extent I pulled the engine out of the car to stop wasting time on it  – now I lie in bed thinking about it.
The system I have is a New Old Stock locally made (Australian) single 4” venturi set up. The metering block incorporates the pill, a fuel shut off and throttle (connected to the butterfly by an adjustable length arm). The guy that designed and made these about 25 years ago as far as I can establish he made about 25 units and then lost interest and moved on to other things. A sedan racer won a national championship series using one so they do work. Well mine doesn’t – least not very well. The system is manufactured for Methanol fuel.  I have a new Enderle 80A-1 pump being feed by a # 10 line then #6 to the metering block. Between the pump and metering block I have a test port with a pressure gauge. I have a #6 return line to the tank. I have 31 nozzles and started with a 85 pill. The first set of plugs I had were some really old and dirty Denso W20EX-U at .025” gap fired by an internal coil Vertex. Fired up OK - flames in the pipes and running rough at say 3-4000 RPM broke the first pressure gauge going past 110psi. No fumes in the eyes or throat. 
Here it is - https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10201977283752322&set=vb.1792156888&type=2&theater   
Fitted a set of NGK BP6ES and a new 350psi liquid filled pressure gauge and went to a .105 pil.  Fired it up and saw 100psi @ 2000 rpm so figured I needed to lean it out further.  As well as looking a bit sooty the plugs looked wet so I figured I needed to go up a step hotter with the plugs as well.
Fitted a set of NGK BP5ES plus @.020”gap.  Couldn’t get it started cracked the delivery line at the metering block and at best a dribble on cranking. Cracked the line at the top of the pump and fuel present (gravity). Cracked the lines at the nozzles – nothing while cranking?  Drained the tank removed and blew out all the lines blew out the metering block (in situ). Noticed no pressure on cranking so went from a .105 to a .72 pill. With a fair bit of fuel to prime it I got it running but with a bit less that 20psi line pressure @1500 and something in the vicinity of 50psi at 4,000 rpm. Breaking down and rough as guts at 4,000 rpm. What the?? Where has my pressure gone?  I have a set of 37 nozzles I would prefer to run because to my thinking % changes to the area of the orifice are going to start to have less impact on a smaller pill if you get my logic. But I’m not keen on to many more changes now that I’ve lost my way.
When I was a kid my long departed father used to say 99% inspiration and 1% perspiration so as a result I’m a chronic over thinker. My heads hurting – thanks Dad.

[dreracecar]

Did you check the pump drive endplay before you bolted the pump on??? A new pump is hard to turn with your fingers, a pump thats been run you can turn with your fingers, a new pump that one can spin the drive with your fingers means that the impeller has been drivin into the front plate and wore a groove in it and wont make pressure at low RPMs. I had this happen to me, new pump and it would not start, or if it did would lose fire unless idle was up high. Checked everthing but the pump cause it was new. Finaly pulled the pump an the drive spun like a top. $375 later and trimmed the drive, and its been on there for 3 years now.Remove the pump front plate and check for wear. Will have to send it in for a rebuild if such is the case, or buy a new one. Considering where you are at, not only would I have the one repaired ,but would also purchase a spare to eliminate any downtime if getting it freshened up, one just rotates pumps. Not just saying this because I have a New Enderle 80a-1 pump for sale, but I do

[retroboy]

Yes the pump feels "notchie" and firm-ish to turn by hand. I have the pump driven by a belt and the indexing mark on the back is at 3.00 o'clock

[Totally T]

If it was me....First thing I would do is put the .085 pill and the 31 Nozzles back in it so you know it should run since it already did. Second thing would be to leak the BV down and make sure its within spec. How much timing do you run?

Next thing would be to check that pump phasing. Since its belt drive I would pull the belt and make sure the pulley is not spinning on the shaft and make sure the cable arm is actually opening and closing the shutoff valve. With it being belt drive, the mark on the pump should be on the left at the 9:00 position as in the image below that I stole from a Google search. If that all checks out then i think I would have to head to the mag. IN the movie you posted, i cannot tell if its flames or if its putting out cylinders.

[Spud Miller]

 While the pressure between the pump and barrel valve at an idle is an indication of several possible problems, it doesn't have much to do with your WOT tuneup. Don't change the main pill to get some certain pressure at idle...it's related (bigger pill, lower pressure) but not the knob to turn. You probably know that, but I hear people doing that all the time so I thought I better mention it. Adjust the idle with the barrel valve hex link.

 A bigger pill made your pressure lower, so that makes sense. If you're motor is idling lean, then it isn't getting enough fuel and you'll need to open the barrel valve up and that will lower that pressure you're seeing.

 If the pump were configured backwards, it wouldn't be working at all so we know that isn't it. If your nozzles were blocked with debris, your pressure would be very high and the motor lean. Check them! Or the rotor in the barrel valve is not in the correct spot. As long as the main pill is bleeding past a 1-3 PSI check valve, about 7% of your engine size in cubic inches is a reasonable leak down that should run well and be very close.

Some setups (like a blown Hilborn) are meant to run a secondary that will bleed off a bunch of fuel at idle...maybe that system was meant to run one (or needs one) and would bleed off a bunch of that pressure in FRONT of the barrel valve.

 Do some calculations to see what the main pill SHOULD be for that pump and those nozzles. You could use the calculator on the FIE website to figure it out. You could call and I can help you with it. You never mentioned how big your motor was, so I'm not able to provide much in the way of numbers for you. There's a questionnaire on the FIE website that allows me to quickly get a good, accurate tuneup calculated. If fuel looks to be right, then looking at ignition would be the next step.

 Also, I can't tell you how many 'poor performance/missing/popping/farting problems' in the last year have been TDC issues. Double check your TDC mark with a stop type tool. The balancer hub moving, ignition timing being way out, keys out, cam off, a half dozen different brain-blowing troubleshooting nightmares this last summer all related or found/solved when TDC was checked and found to be WAY out.


 Ho, ho, ho,
 Spud


 



 

[retroboy]

Thanks for the replys. We're a day ahead of you so it's Christmas day here and what am I doing trying to work through this fuel injection. Totaly T Funny you should mention the Maggie. I tried to contact a shop but they were closed on Christmas eve a 6.00 PM go figure. But I will head down that path regardless so it's something to cross off the list. I had checked all the pulleys and the pump rotation the other day - all good there.
Spud. I had a look at the calculator this morning but don't know what my VE is or my pump flow so I put in 90% VE and down graded the 80a-1 supposed 7 GPM to some thing like 5 ish and it came up with a 130 something pill. The engine in question is a 360 Chrysler with standard heads, small pop up pistons, ST21 Racer Brown solid camshaft, Injection and a Vertex that's it.  I'll do the questionnaire and send it through. And I'll check true TDC good tip.
Thanks again
Cheers

[BK]

Isnt .020 a little too much gap for a mag? Don't NGK plugs get hotter as the numbers drop? 5s and 6s sound like they would be too hot for a race motor.

[ricardo1967]

... Don't NGK plugs get hotter as the numbers drop? yes

5s and 6s sound like they would be too hot for a race motor. likely 6 is a good heat range to start here, 7 if high compression