The boys from Kansas are at it again

[Mr Froggy]

Out here in corn country my wife and I promote an OTTPA tractor pull in our town.  Like the Parks boys, the hard work and ingenuity is very impressive.  The budget/entry level classes that are limited to a single turbo, regulated size pump, injectors and lines are running as hard as the multi turboed, max pump tractors were 10 or 15 years ago.  But, like so often happens, the term budget does not mean cheap.  Now it'll take at least 6 figures to compete in the budget classes.

Its the Nature of the beast.

Sorry to get off topic on tractors!   Hats off to hard work and ingenuity.

[longm1958]

That car and engine are killer. But it is also WAAAAAAAAAY out of my budget. Reasons like this are why I cannot class race. And I know I am not alone in that fact.

Still it's super cool.

And yes, I am also drooling.

[wideopen231]

Want a challange? Name anything in motorosports that does not grow cost ten fold topayout. While you may know one or two I will bet there are 10 that do for everyone of them.

Hey I use to run headsup class IHRA TA/FC and was in top of field most weekends.Spent a bunch of money but not as mcuh as some guys not running as quick. I FREAKING love that kind of racing.Highlight of life IMO,can not do it now.Cost has gone fron low 6 figure to high 6 figure and more for some.My income went way down also.Heck its take me 4 year to get car where it is now I use to spend more in one phone call. Point is it never gets cheaper to run ay class where headsup is name of game.  Heck bracket racing is gone high dollar cmpared to when I started in 1986.
 Cost of running is aproblem thru opout this sport,but seems I have heard that for decades.

  The boys from Kanasas may spend some money, but they do a lot of development of pieces that are palin bad.They do draw some attention to nostalgia style cars especailly FED's.

[RockinRobinWKR]

NHRA had a meeting last week in Gainsville to re-look at their approval of the Parks hemi heads, since NHRA tech passed them in 2008, and decided their approval still stands.
Jon

Jon, that is extremely interesting ... ? I'm surprised that the NHRA didn't recognize the glaring error in the comp nostalgia dragster categories. Most all of the other types/categories have several different breaks for head design and bore spacing. The ND classes are really based off a SBC with a wedge head and a 4.4 bore spacing. Common sense will tell you that a larger bore spacing (4.5625 early Chrysler) will allow for a larger port area, add that to a canted or hemi head, and the proof is in the pudding. Even if there was some magically approved iron hemi casting to fit a SBC or SBF, there is not enough physical room to compete with a larger bore spacing ... period. Was the NHRA just covering their butt for their previous oversight, or are they suddenly ignorant to physical limitations to internal combustion engine?

For the record, I'm playing more devil's advocate here. I'm thoroughly impressed with the Parks' effort, but I'm quite surprised that the NHRA and the Heritage Series didn't immediately bump the car to A/ND, regardless of injector size. The results would have been the same regardless of class.

Following; HS B/ND engine rule:

B/ND: 3.50 pounds per cubic inch, 1,300-pound minimum weight. Limited to OEM cast-iron Hemi; 23-degree small-block Chevy, big-block Chevy and Ford may use aftermarket cast-iron cylinder head, but stock valve angles must be retained. Raised runner 23-degree small-block Chevy cast-iron heads permitted (refer to NHRA B/ND rules)

Notice above that the early hemi is limited to "OEM cast-iron Hemi", while the SBC, BBC, and Ford are allowed an aftermarket head with an allowance for SBC RR head. The SWJFA further defines the aftermarket head as a replacement head. Logic would dictate that an approved replacement head would need a water-jacket as all the referenced aftermarket heads have. Regardless of a part number or not, these new early hemi heads are clearly aftermarket as defined by the rules. Many of us have known about the Parks' effort for years, but based on the above rule most, if not all, have assumed that the original 1950s cast heads were legal for B while these aftermarket castings were intended for and legal for A. I've read the HS B/ND rule upside down and backwards and cannot come up with any other interpretation than the one I just stated.

For those few people running an original early hemi head, this allowance has just escalated the cost of heads from roughly $4000 prepared to over $20,000. That doesn't include the associated hardware, and changes to the block to facilitate the use of these new castings. I would assume that many of the current Comp Eliminator B/ND cars will remain parked this year or longer, until the rules change or Parks move up to A. Especially if the index takes a major hit in B/ND.

Again, I admire what they've done, and if the sanctioning bodies are going to allow it then more power to the Parks'. Although, it kind of sucks for you Jon since you just got your original early hemi back in your car and you run in B.

[Andy Carlson]

I find it interesting that after 10 years of SBC dominance of the NHRA Nostalgia Jr fuel class that now there would be advocacy for helping the beleaguered SBC combinations. Where was the outrage when raised runner 23 degree heads which were flowing over 400 cfm? The few Jr Fuel Hemis had a real hard time making minimum weight, and after a filled block, even harder. It is a well known principle in weight/cubic inch classes the minimum weight cars carry an advantage due to physics. I doubt any Hemi Jr fueler has ever been at minimum weight-advantage to the SBC. Hemis have also been difficult to achieve high compression, and efforts to fill a traced and profiled dome into a hemi combustion chamber has been unrewarding with flame propagation problems. SBC comp eliminator motors can easily reach 16:1 CR.

So SBC heads are available from some serious aftermarket, cutting edge head companies and now that is not good enough?

I root for the heads designed back in the Truman administration times.
-Andy Carlson

[RockinRobinWKR]

Andy, the outrage has happened several times. First with Jim and Stacy Paul's Buick heads that were not legal until a lawsuit was threatened. Goodguys took out OEM in their rule book which allowed the heads and then opened the door for the SBC 14 degree New Zealand heads. Somewhere in the mix the RR 23 degree head came along, although the New Zealand heads ran away with the class. This resulted in dwindling car count and a split of the class into A and B fields with near total demise of the standard 23 degree SBC head that the class started with. Back in the mid 90s there were close to 30 Junior Fuelers at any given race, and it was second only to N/TF which had as many or more cars as well.

Many of the things you mentioned regarding weight were true in the early days with the SBC being lighter when using a stock 400 block and bowtie heads against the heavier early hemi making more HP. The wins were split fairly evenly between the two. The scarcity of the 400 blocks being replaced by heavier aftermarket blocks with increasing safety rules diminished the SBC weight advantage. Surprisingly, the early hemi combination is not quite as heavy as it looks when a little lightening effort is put into play, and certainly within reason to obtain the weight break for a 400 + cubic inch combination most people are running.

As for your other points, 16:1 compression may be obtainable, but is not necessarily the norm, and with todays cams it is no harder with a hemi than it is with a SBC. Having been involved with both an early hemi and a SBC, the flame propagation problems you mention are news to me. I've read about them on the internet, but have not seen any evidence of it in practice. Additionally, for the SBC heads, the availability is limited in the aftermarket, and the design is still based on a standard SBC inline wedge, which dictates a smaller valve area due to the smaller bore spacing and valve alignment. 370 cfm is about as high as I've ever seen in 23 degree RR head.

Also, understand that most of the nostalgia racers are racing on a budget that pales in comparison to those that are chasing the index advantage in Competition Eliminator. Ironically, that was another source of outrage when NHRA created comp nostalgia dragster classes. There were no high dollar pro built motors until NHRA's involvement. A top notch SBC can be built by a knowledgeable racer with about $25,000 to $30,000 in hard parts alone. Considering the lack of tech in other combinations, and the budget minded racers involved, the SBC is the go to engine of choice without much consideration of its shortcomings when compared with the glaring loopholes in the rules.

Considering our Junior Fueler was originally built for an early hemi, we'll gladly take on a partner willing to provide us with one of these killer $80,000 hemi's, and dump our $20,000 boat anchor ... lol. I have full confidence in our tuning ability, so we would certainly be a player. Scott and Frank are good friends and are only about four hours away, so show us the money!!   

[JrFuel Hayden]

Hey Andy, do you have or know where I can get those raised-runner 23° iron heads that flow 400 cfm for my SBC ? My RR SBC heads only flow 355 cfm. The 14° heads flow 400+ cfm.  And yes our early iron Hemi is over weight, but we are working on that. One of my RR SBC was at 16 1/2:1 compression, but now mostly because of bigger cams the compression is more like 15 1/2:1. And Park's 14° SBC motors were more like 14 1/2, running over one inch valve lift, and 10,500 rpm, at 6.76, 197 mph, Racing Comp Elim.

Now Robin, you are telling NHRA they are ignorant, planning on racing any NHRA events ? LOL. Are you saying it's not right anyone can not run after market hemi heads like the SBC'S ? 1'st of all Hemi heads can run bigger valves than SBC because of the camber shapes. Don't get me wrong I'm not Happy about the Parks Hemi heads, but they did everything that NHRA asked them to do to get their heads approved for "replacement Hemi heads", as it says in the NHRA approval letter I saw at the March Meet. The NHRA guidelines they received when they 1'st asked was the new Hemi heads could not be any higher, longer, or valve angles could not be more or less than 3° from OE, as in the rule book for B/ND. I'm not trying to defend NHRA approval but maybe the water jacket issue is they have have approved lots of billet alum heads with no water jackets.  I had one A/ND & B/ND racer call me after the Gainsville meeting and said he thought NHRA should have changed the rule book, but if they approved the heads for Hemi replacement, maybe that means the after market heads are like OE heads, just like the after market you and I run on our SBC's ? Keep in mind NHRA had the sample heads to look at and approve, it's not like they never saw them. I feel better about keeping JF class alive when Frank said they are only racing this year in JF Heritage, and has said they really don't want to hurt them self by changing the "B" handi cap, or screw-up our west coast deal. BTW, Parks will not show up at any SWJFA races, because their motor is 421 ci, which is legal for B/ND, since some Comp racer talked NHRA into increasing the ci limit from 410 to 430, and SWJFA, has kept it at 410.   
There has been lots of talk about the N&P heads, that took them 10 years to build and get approved, but you should know they did their own design and machining, besides "thinking outside the box", and I've thought maybe it's time to go to real OEM heads. But of course that would mean we would only have one legal race car, ours with our early Hemi. But if you think that's a great idea, just send us the money to convert all of the other 8 teams that raced the MM to convert their motors to OEM part numbers. Or if that seems to much, then after market OE style heads like SWJFA might work better, then just just enough money to convert just 7 teams stuff.  So lets say we go to the non raised runner SBC heads like you, that flow about 300 cfm, then what do we do with our Hemi that flows 370 cfm, it just doesn't seem fair to let the hemi out flow the SBC's. does it ? 
Now, it does seem the N & P hemi heads should be "A" class, were the rule book seems to allow any valve angle and 3 1/8" injectors, but their valve angle is hemi OE, and they are using 2 7/8 injectors, so what makes them "A" heads ?
As far as the money issue, yes Comp racers have been spending $70k+ on complete race engines for years, but NONE of our guys that race JF Heritage have spent anywhere near that. We are budget racers too, and asking our racers to spend more money so we all can race in the same class and heads-up is not in the cards. At the March Meet, we had 3 "A", 5 "B" and 1 "C" cars. One "A" car broke so we had a full 8 car field. We will have one more "C" team joining us this year and another "A" car along with another hemi team. Matter-a-fact I know a Comp racer that over the winter spent $130 k on a Pro Stock motor to race in A/AP, and picked up 100 extra HP.   
Maybe when the new JrFuel class was formed in the early 80's they should have really spelled out the rules, so only OEM heads would be allowed, and no grey area about after market heads, much less the Paul's Buick heads, but the rules were not that spelled out.
 I wonder if some team made their own cast iron non-raised runner SBC heads and raced SWJFA, with OE head bolts, no plastic, and no lifter relocated, how that would fly ?
 And what about Ford heads, they can be made to flow close to the 14° SBC heads. SWJFA allows iron Ford heads right ?

I hope this clears up some questions, and I'm not just stirring the pot !

Jon

[f parks]

 All the allowed motors are capable of 6.70 performance you just have to do the research and work on them.  We built a 23 degree motor for the SWJF class and went out and won a championship with 23 cars participating, the result they outlawed it and several others and now have 7participants.  How many of you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week 365days a year to support your passion and how many of you would put 10 years and countless hours into their race car.  If you cant play with the big dogs run NE1 or a class you can afford that doesn't take research or work .Unlike many of our competitors our Engine was built in house with some unconventional Ideas but that is what Makes Drag Racing the sport that it is.  No one wants to see a 7.40 car these days, We have 7.0 Pro which is faster than almost all the Jr Fuel cars so why would anyone want to see a heads class that is slower.  Rant over.

Frank Parks

[wideopen231]

Nothing like innovation to get folks riled up.

[GlennLever]

I'm been slow to step in here and I apologize.

I want frank discussions to take place. They can so long as they do not get personal.

I have edited one reply here and it was a reply I wish I did not feel good about editing.

In my opinion racing is about creating a better mouse trap, do it with in the rules and you are a champion. Better mouse traps cost time to develop, ingenuity, creativity, and money to create.

You too can create a better mouse trap, spend the time and money to do it.

Don't begrudge someone that has.

Don't like the rules talk to the people that created them.

Everyone knows speed cost money, the faster you go the more it costs.

I have the time, but not the money, wish I did.  I want to go faster.

[Andy Carlson]

It has been a challenge in motorsports for decades to achieve parity in heads-up classes, witness what NHRA did with weight breaks for Pro Stock in the 1970s. A lot of the top teams spent a lot of time coming up with ways to mitigate some of the perceived severe penalties levied against their combinations (Remember the 4-door 'Tijuana Taxi' Maverick with its Cleveland 351?

Jr Fuel had a simple premise, early small blocks with cast iron heads/blocks. Unlike Ford, Chevy has no canted valve small blocks (which allow much larger valves than a true wedge). I am surprised that a competitive 351 Cleveland hasn't surfaced in Jr fuel. Might just run away from all competition, and back we would be faced with parity. Maybe a rule change to allow short stroke BBC 420" engines could help, but seeing a big block in a Jr Fuel car wouldn't seem quite right to me. Perhaps make Jr Fuel a spec class, SBC only, might work; certainly THAT would be a level playing field!

[masracingtd1167]

I would think if you want to increase the car counts instead of making the rules so restrictive you might want to open them up a little.Is there a reason why you have to use a cast iron head ? both a+b both use an aftermarket head anyway so why not use an alluminum head that can be repaired for a lot less money . I think that the weight break is just fine at 3.5 . My thoughts would be to allow any head in a and make b a true wedge class with in line valves. Like I said just my thoughts . Bill

[JrFuel Hayden]

Andy, Thanks for thinking of JrFuel,  the main rule book for JF is on the Heritage site and JrFuelDragsterAssociation.com, and also NHRA Comp A/ND & B/ND. and there you will see Ford, Hemi, BBC, besides SBC engines are allowed. Matter-a-fact 10 years ago Art Chrisman built and raced a 410 cl BBC, but found with the current combos back then it was not competitive with the new 14° SBC iron heads so they put the BBC on a shelve until 2014 , and ran 7.30's at the Calif Hot Rod Reunion, which I'm sure is the quickest BBC JF in the world, but not good enough to compete with the 7.0's the SBC were running. I told Art that he could go to 430 ci since NHRA increased the engine size limit from 410 to 430, which would really help the BBC, in two ways, it would make the 3.5 lbs / ci rule [ the lighten BBC weighs 100 lbs more than the SBC] and with the BBC big bore the only way to make the 410 ci is using a short stroke crank, like 3 1/4" and that makes it hard to build compression. Alky likes 16+ compression. I'd love to have my SBC ports as big as a Big Block. Anyway they took the easier way and put one of their 14° SBC in their dragster and raced "JFA". Also about 10 years ago a team built a Ford JF, but not with a Cleveland head which is what I think would work. A team in Ohio, Tom Frey, built such a combo including  relocated exhaust ports done by Bob McKray Performance and even Frank Parks said that car would keep up with them at the time and it's a "B" car., running against their "A" car. Tom just had allot of trans problems, got hurt and quit.
So you are right Andy a Ford combo is worth looking at and Art Chrisman's BBC is for sale, just get a longer crank and pistons to match, everything else is there. Art's deal is a real deal, because you couldn't buy just the parts for $15k. 

Jon  JFDA

[Roger]

Andy, I remember it looked unusual to see a Pro Stock car with 4 doors removed in the pits. But it was one bad taxi ride!

Jr. Fuel today is not what it was 45 or 50 years ago. It’s got to the point where there are currently cars that are considered to fit into Jr. Fuel rules running Chevy 23* heads, 23* raised runner heads, 14* raised runner heads, OEM hemi heads and replacement hemi heads. Add to that OEM Cleveland heads, big block Chevy heads and anything else that comes close and there is be a big range of horse power potential based just on the air flow of the cylinder heads. Hard to make a level playing field with all the iron out there already. As far as a spec engine, there would be a lot of folks having to change a lot of parts, probably myself included, at a good deal of expense. Even changing to aluminum heads will result in needing different piston profiles and the rest of the expense that goes with it.

Trying to run a heads-up class with cars of differing horsepower potential takes rules. Some rules we like, some we don’t. But the objectives of the west coast Junior Fuel Dragster Association and Southwest Junior Fuel Association is to have a setting where we can race similar cars under rules we as members agree to and that keeps this thing called junior fuel running down the track a quarter of a mile at a time.

Frank and Scott Parks are the definition of hard core Comp Eliminator racers as recently witnessed by the performance of their new hemi at the March Meet. What can I say, WOW! And it only took them 12 years to get there. But this is kind of hard work and dedication that it takes to win in Comp Elimination at a NHRA national level.

So Jr. Fuel now has different meaning to those of us involved in running these injected alcohol burning front engine dragsters. If you want to get involved and run a car without spending a boat load of money then there are groups like the Southwest Heritage Racing Association that have indexes to run against. If you want heads-up competition there’s the SWJFA as well as the JFDA with their no breakout indexes. And if you want to go all out, then NHRA has a class to race your badass 10,600rpm FED at national events scattered across the country.

Where does it go from here? It goes wherever we allow it to go. Me, I’m just glad to have made a boat load of new friends that also enjoy injected FEDs and that I have options as to where and when I can race my hotrod, even if I live here in the middle of Kansas! Trying to get a bunch of racers to agree on one set of rules with all that’s out there already could be a mighty big mountain to climb. But I’m willing to listen.

[f parks]

Its not just the motor it is all the little things that make a car go fast and most guys just wont do it all.  I am pretty sure if our hemi was in several of the other cars out there it wouldn't be as fast.  It is the whole package.  Converter, Gear, Tire, Driver, Car, Wheels, wings, and every part at its maximum potential.  We try to help everyone to be faster but most just want easy answers, there is no easy way you have to do it all not just the big things.

Frank