Drag Racing Discussions > Front Engine Dragsters

The boys from Kansas are at it again

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RockinRobinWKR:
Andy, the outrage has happened several times. First with Jim and Stacy Paul's Buick heads that were not legal until a lawsuit was threatened. Goodguys took out OEM in their rule book which allowed the heads and then opened the door for the SBC 14 degree New Zealand heads. Somewhere in the mix the RR 23 degree head came along, although the New Zealand heads ran away with the class. This resulted in dwindling car count and a split of the class into A and B fields with near total demise of the standard 23 degree SBC head that the class started with. Back in the mid 90s there were close to 30 Junior Fuelers at any given race, and it was second only to N/TF which had as many or more cars as well.

Many of the things you mentioned regarding weight were true in the early days with the SBC being lighter when using a stock 400 block and bowtie heads against the heavier early hemi making more HP. The wins were split fairly evenly between the two. The scarcity of the 400 blocks being replaced by heavier aftermarket blocks with increasing safety rules diminished the SBC weight advantage. Surprisingly, the early hemi combination is not quite as heavy as it looks when a little lightening effort is put into play, and certainly within reason to obtain the weight break for a 400 + cubic inch combination most people are running.

As for your other points, 16:1 compression may be obtainable, but is not necessarily the norm, and with todays cams it is no harder with a hemi than it is with a SBC. Having been involved with both an early hemi and a SBC, the flame propagation problems you mention are news to me. I've read about them on the internet, but have not seen any evidence of it in practice. Additionally, for the SBC heads, the availability is limited in the aftermarket, and the design is still based on a standard SBC inline wedge, which dictates a smaller valve area due to the smaller bore spacing and valve alignment. 370 cfm is about as high as I've ever seen in 23 degree RR head.

Also, understand that most of the nostalgia racers are racing on a budget that pales in comparison to those that are chasing the index advantage in Competition Eliminator. Ironically, that was another source of outrage when NHRA created comp nostalgia dragster classes. There were no high dollar pro built motors until NHRA's involvement. A top notch SBC can be built by a knowledgeable racer with about $25,000 to $30,000 in hard parts alone. Considering the lack of tech in other combinations, and the budget minded racers involved, the SBC is the go to engine of choice without much consideration of its shortcomings when compared with the glaring loopholes in the rules.

Considering our Junior Fueler was originally built for an early hemi, we'll gladly take on a partner willing to provide us with one of these killer $80,000 hemi's, and dump our $20,000 boat anchor ... lol. I have full confidence in our tuning ability, so we would certainly be a player. Scott and Frank are good friends and are only about four hours away, so show us the money!!   ;D ;D

JrFuel Hayden:
Hey Andy, do you have or know where I can get those raised-runner 23° iron heads that flow 400 cfm for my SBC ? My RR SBC heads only flow 355 cfm. The 14° heads flow 400+ cfm.  And yes our early iron Hemi is over weight, but we are working on that. One of my RR SBC was at 16 1/2:1 compression, but now mostly because of bigger cams the compression is more like 15 1/2:1. And Park's 14° SBC motors were more like 14 1/2, running over one inch valve lift, and 10,500 rpm, at 6.76, 197 mph, Racing Comp Elim.

Now Robin, you are telling NHRA they are ignorant, planning on racing any NHRA events ? LOL. Are you saying it's not right anyone can not run after market hemi heads like the SBC'S ? 1'st of all Hemi heads can run bigger valves than SBC because of the camber shapes. Don't get me wrong I'm not Happy about the Parks Hemi heads, but they did everything that NHRA asked them to do to get their heads approved for "replacement Hemi heads", as it says in the NHRA approval letter I saw at the March Meet. The NHRA guidelines they received when they 1'st asked was the new Hemi heads could not be any higher, longer, or valve angles could not be more or less than 3° from OE, as in the rule book for B/ND. I'm not trying to defend NHRA approval but maybe the water jacket issue is they have have approved lots of billet alum heads with no water jackets.  I had one A/ND & B/ND racer call me after the Gainsville meeting and said he thought NHRA should have changed the rule book, but if they approved the heads for Hemi replacement, maybe that means the after market heads are like OE heads, just like the after market you and I run on our SBC's ? Keep in mind NHRA had the sample heads to look at and approve, it's not like they never saw them. I feel better about keeping JF class alive when Frank said they are only racing this year in JF Heritage, and has said they really don't want to hurt them self by changing the "B" handi cap, or screw-up our west coast deal. BTW, Parks will not show up at any SWJFA races, because their motor is 421 ci, which is legal for B/ND, since some Comp racer talked NHRA into increasing the ci limit from 410 to 430, and SWJFA, has kept it at 410.   
There has been lots of talk about the N&P heads, that took them 10 years to build and get approved, but you should know they did their own design and machining, besides "thinking outside the box", and I've thought maybe it's time to go to real OEM heads. But of course that would mean we would only have one legal race car, ours with our early Hemi. But if you think that's a great idea, just send us the money to convert all of the other 8 teams that raced the MM to convert their motors to OEM part numbers. Or if that seems to much, then after market OE style heads like SWJFA might work better, then just just enough money to convert just 7 teams stuff.  So lets say we go to the non raised runner SBC heads like you, that flow about 300 cfm, then what do we do with our Hemi that flows 370 cfm, it just doesn't seem fair to let the hemi out flow the SBC's. does it ? 
Now, it does seem the N & P hemi heads should be "A" class, were the rule book seems to allow any valve angle and 3 1/8" injectors, but their valve angle is hemi OE, and they are using 2 7/8 injectors, so what makes them "A" heads ?
As far as the money issue, yes Comp racers have been spending $70k+ on complete race engines for years, but NONE of our guys that race JF Heritage have spent anywhere near that. We are budget racers too, and asking our racers to spend more money so we all can race in the same class and heads-up is not in the cards. At the March Meet, we had 3 "A", 5 "B" and 1 "C" cars. One "A" car broke so we had a full 8 car field. We will have one more "C" team joining us this year and another "A" car along with another hemi team. Matter-a-fact I know a Comp racer that over the winter spent $130 k on a Pro Stock motor to race in A/AP, and picked up 100 extra HP.   
Maybe when the new JrFuel class was formed in the early 80's they should have really spelled out the rules, so only OEM heads would be allowed, and no grey area about after market heads, much less the Paul's Buick heads, but the rules were not that spelled out.
 I wonder if some team made their own cast iron non-raised runner SBC heads and raced SWJFA, with OE head bolts, no plastic, and no lifter relocated, how that would fly ?
 And what about Ford heads, they can be made to flow close to the 14° SBC heads. SWJFA allows iron Ford heads right ?

I hope this clears up some questions, and I'm not just stirring the pot !

Jon

f parks:
 All the allowed motors are capable of 6.70 performance you just have to do the research and work on them.  We built a 23 degree motor for the SWJF class and went out and won a championship with 23 cars participating, the result they outlawed it and several others and now have 7participants.  How many of you work 12 hours a day 7 days a week 365days a year to support your passion and how many of you would put 10 years and countless hours into their race car.  If you cant play with the big dogs run NE1 or a class you can afford that doesn't take research or work .Unlike many of our competitors our Engine was built in house with some unconventional Ideas but that is what Makes Drag Racing the sport that it is.  No one wants to see a 7.40 car these days, We have 7.0 Pro which is faster than almost all the Jr Fuel cars so why would anyone want to see a heads class that is slower.  Rant over.

Frank Parks

wideopen231:
Nothing like innovation to get folks riled up.

GlennLever:
I'm been slow to step in here and I apologize.

I want frank discussions to take place. They can so long as they do not get personal.

I have edited one reply here and it was a reply I wish I did not feel good about editing.

In my opinion racing is about creating a better mouse trap, do it with in the rules and you are a champion. Better mouse traps cost time to develop, ingenuity, creativity, and money to create.

You too can create a better mouse trap, spend the time and money to do it.

Don't begrudge someone that has.

Don't like the rules talk to the people that created them.

Everyone knows speed cost money, the faster you go the more it costs.

I have the time, but not the money, wish I did.  I want to go faster.

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