Author Topic: Front End Designs / traction issues  (Read 25818 times)

Offline DragsterNut

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Front End Designs / traction issues
« on: September 23, 2014, 11:26:54 AM »
I currently have a MW torsion bar front end with a 1960's front axle and spindles.  The wheels are "creitz equipment" spoked but are 16". (only found one tire to fit).  The car is too heavy and looking to cut weight out.  I'm thinking of converting to a solid axle bolted to the chassis with light weight spindles and new 17" aluminum rims.  The other issue is that the car pulls the front end about 6" then spins badly.  Sometimes goes up in smoke. So I'm thinking that removing a few pounds off of the front may help the front carry a bit longer, easier. I'm looking for thoughts on what would be strong enough but yet ligter than what I have now. 

Car specs:
1625 lb with me...Way too heavy. 80% on rear
30 x 10.5's
4:11 gears
1.76 low gear
6700 stall - leave at 5500
352 ci Ford Cleveland
injected alcohol
best et with this combo so far is 5.04 in 1/8th 1.200 60'

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Offline rooman

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 02:30:31 PM »
I don't think that taking what will probably be a minimal amount of weight off the front end is going to make a major difference. Even if you save 50 lbs you really need to be thinking about the whole dynamic of the car. What is the wheelbase, is the torsion bar working or locked up, how rigid is the chassis itself, do you run a wheelie bar etc? A little more info and some photos would be a big help.

Roo
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Offline George

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 03:22:56 PM »
Bring your car up to Central Illinois Dragway for test and tune on October 3 and stay and race with us on Saturday. Great traction and plenty of shut down. You can probably learn a few things from our racers group. I know I have.  It is the last race of the season. George

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Offline DragsterNut

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 08:32:48 PM »
The torsion bar is working.  The wheelbase is 184.  The wheelie bar is 48" long made of 3 members and single wheel. I took braces out of it to make it as soft as I can.  Before the converter was loosened up it would dead hook and hit the wheelie bar very hard.  Now it spins before getting to the wheelie bar which is set at 6" off the ground. Also running 9psi in the slicks. I will try to attach pics, however the ones that I took are too large. What do you do to shrink them?

Offline JeffV8

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 08:36:57 PM »

Offline DragsterNut

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 08:47:32 PM »
George, Thanks a bunch for the invite.  I would live to come up but I broke a bunch of polylocks and ordered jesels. They wont be here in time.  I would love to visit next year.  I hope to get things lined out so we can hit all of the NDRL races and others also.  I'm looking forward to learning thats for sure.

Offline DragsterNut

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2014, 09:07:25 PM »
Roo, Here are a couple of pics.  See what you think.  I can post more if there are some details you would like to see. Thanks for your help.

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2014, 11:09:48 PM »
Hello DragsterNut, welcome to this site and FED racing.
Here are my thoughts, I think you are hurting your self running the 30x10.5 tires, the 10.5 tires are designed for 2,000-3,000 # door cars , so they have stiffer sidewalls than what dragsters want. I would at least lower the tire pressure, we run 5 3/4 to 6 # on my JrFueler running 7.0's and 189 mph. What most of the fast JF teams use is 31x12x15 GoodYear D2585, but GY is not making them now, so try the newest Hoosiers of the size. The GoodYears weigh 22.6 lbs each and that's less rotating weight. Does the 4.11 give you the RPM  you are looking for going thru the finish line ? If your motor can stand more RPM, then but a 4.33, or 4.56 in it because the lower gear will allow the tires to hook up sooner.  We changed to a 1.68 trans gear so we hit the tires softer. Also try leaving at a lower launch RPM. Your stall seems close, but the best is to find out what RPM range your cam/ motor wants to run. Then get a converter that will work in that range. Case in point if your motor will be happy starting at 7,000 then your motor is struggling from 6700 to 7,000.  Also what size is your converter, if it's 9" or 10" to have too much flywheel effect, besides more rotating weight.  Most of the fast JrFuelers run  7" .
As far as losing car weight, 1'st thing I would do is take that heavy battery out, and convert to a remote battery pak.  Again most JF guys use two batteries in series to get 24 volts so it will will spin the motor enough to get the mag working and over come our 15-17 to 1 compression. Our remote 24 volt battery pak weighs 10 lbs total. Alky runs better with higher compression and motor heat. We leave the start line around 180-200°.
BTW, I can covert your wheels to 17", just send me your 16" and I'll clean-up/ polish your early Ford Crietz hubs and make spokes for 17" rims, chrome or alum. And of course I have 17" rib tires.
Feel Free to call my cell anytime, 805-444-4489 with any questions.
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Offline DragsterNut

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2014, 07:29:40 PM »
JrFuelHayden, I'm running 9 to 10 psi and the tires wad up and shake to the point where you can hardly see.  When I get it back together I was going to play more with tire pressure but I'll try lower as well. I have not had a good 1/4 mile run with the new motor but it looks like I will have to drop a gear ratio with the 30" tire and maybe 2 gears with 31". I'm currently goin thru. the traps at 7800.  I need to be at 8400 to 8500.  What king of rpm drop do you see at the gear chenge? I feel mine drops too far (8500 to 6200). I attached a data log. My converter is a 2-piece 8" that I made myself.  I've played with 6 or seven stators to get the stall where the motor likes it.  ~6500 to 6800 seems to be ok.  60' times wer better with lower stall (5800) because the car would dead hook and bend the wheelie bar as it tried to flip over.  The higher stall get the motor in peak torque and now spins the tires before it touches the wheelie bar. I'm looking for the best scenerio but I admit I'm a bit lost.  I'm going to got to remote start battery and install a new mag.  I would like to conver the front wheels to 17" and will give you a call at the end of the season.  Does anyone make lightweight modern spindles for that hub?  I want to get rid of the bellcrank steering and run the sterring rod out to the spindle to make room for centering up the fire bottle and reduce backlash.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2014, 07:33:03 PM by DragsterNut »

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 01:32:54 AM »
What I think might be going on is you had too much tire spin with your higher stall because you were in or close to your power range, but not enough tire. Same thing with your higher launch rpm.  Also with your wheelie bar at 6", your front end is building up momentum and hits the wheelie bar and unloads the slicks, because it's kinda shocking/ upsetting the chassis. We run ours at about 2", and let the wheelie bar flex to more gently push the front end down. Look don't get crazy about adding more weight to your front end. Some racers are afraid the extra weight will slow the car down, but I've gone faster after adding another 20 lbs to the front. i know some fast guys that have over 90 lbs bolted to the front. Don't get me wrong lighter cars do go faster, but when you can't steer the car or you keep hitting your wheelie bar hard, ADD weight.
I checked a website that can figure speed from tire size, rpm, and current rear gear, with your 30" 4.11, 8500 rpm combo, your 1/4 MPH would be 184.58, which really doesn't match your 1/8 numbers. So if you changed to 4.56 with your 30" tire, your speed would be 166mph. But I think a better combo would be 4.56 with 31x12x15 slicks = 172 mph. And if your motor isn't making enough HP to go 172 mph the bigger gear will help you get your motor in a better power range. Remember bigger gears multiply power. That combo with a looser converter and more traction should get you closer to the performance you're looking for. BTW if you are going to buy some gears you don't really need the "pro gears" because your dragster is lighter than a heavy door car. As I said before GoodYear is not currently making their light weight [ 22.6lbs] D2585 31x12x15 tire, but if you want I guess I could sell you a used set I have [ right now I have 5 sets, two mounted, one on 11" wheels and the other on 12" wheels]. Retail on new tires is $362 ea plus shipping, I could sell you a pair for $200 pr, plus shipping.
Thank you for posting your computer graph, it helps me see what is going on with your car. I pulled up a couple of my runs on my RacePak to have something to compare. What I pulled up was one of my Hemi engine runs thinking it might be closer to your Ford.
We ran 7.123 , 186 mph, with my 4.56, 31x12x15 on 12" wheels at 6 # pressure, launch at 6100 rpm, converter flashing [ stall] at 8100, shifted at 9200. The true stall is figured by looking at what the engine RPM drops to right after the shift, your looks like 6800 rpm. Again if you can talk to your cam guy to find out what RPM range your motor should make good power. The very best is to get your motor on a dyno, and if you should decide to work with a converter company, they would like a dyno chart. BTW I highly recommend A-1 Performance, I don't know of any fast JrFueler running anything other than an A-1. Ya I know I'm always refering to JF, but I thought that would compare to your NA alky burning FED.
I also noticed on your computer chart your driveshaft speed has some big ups and downs, that is were your tires are spinning and then hooking-up. I always look at driveshaft speed to figure tire pressures, up looking for less speed [ more traction] or pressure down for more tire speed. I try to run a peak between 2200 to 2500 rpm at about .3 to .5 into the run, with hopefully only one dip, I also will change launch rpm to get better tire speed.
Looking at your race car picture, can you change your weight bar bolts so you could mount your fire bottle there. You may not have to change your steering bellcrank and maybe spend that money on gears, tires, converter work, which I think will get you a better "bang for your buck". Same thing goes for changing your front wheels to 17", unless your tires are looking bad. To change to lighter Anglia type spindles, you may have to change your early Ford style front axle. I'll check to see if anyone makes Anglia spindles for early Ford axle, which also means your current hubs will not fit the Anglia spindles. Again, think about your best "Bang for your Bucks".
The best performance gain will be in changing your power train. 

Feel free to call my cell, 805-444-4489, I sure hope this all helps you get "un-lost"
Jon
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Offline rooman

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 04:44:44 AM »
I am with Jon on the wheelie bar height, as he notes you are probably getting a "run" at it and the shock back through the chassis when it hits may be part of your problem.  But, if you are only lifting the front wheels six inches or so that should not be happening unless you have a lot of travel in the torsion bar deal or your chassis is arching a lot.
  Although it should not affect your chassis dynamic I would suggest getting rid of the bellcrank for another reason. When the front end articulates with the current package you will get a toe variation due to the links swinging in an arc. You can fix the toe deal by either ditching the bell crank or using it to steer one wheel and then connecting the spindle arms with a single tie rod. You will still get a little bump steer with that deal but at least the wheels will be parallel.
  The motor is only 42" out in Mark Vaught's car and we run around 75 lbs in the nose to reduce the car's tendency to rotate too quickly at the hit. We also run the bar at about the same height as Jon suggested--it is 6 foot long. At a race at Route 66 last month where the track was tight lowering it about 1/2" stopped the car from rattling the tires violently-we run the  Goodyear comp elim style tire.

Roo
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Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2014, 02:23:44 PM »
I agree with John and Roo on the wheelie bar height . I run mine at 2 1/2 to 3 inches . I think that you have too much air in that tire . I believe that the tire should squat at the hit and then as the car moves forward should come up on the tire quickly . It sounds like you are spinning into a shake . Lowering the tire pressure will help this . I would not worry about the weight right now in fact you might want to put a little more on the front till you get it going a to b . This 10.5 tire has come up a few other times and most of us have not tried them yet . That 12x31 Goodyear is the best tire you can put on your car . Keep us posted on your progress . Bill

Offline wideopen231

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2014, 05:13:32 PM »
Man there is a ton of info in this thread. Jon and Roomans have given me few thing to think about on my car. A few questions,but going to do in another thread so as not to Hi jack this one or interrupt the flow of info.  Oh yea good info in yours too Bill don't ant anyone feeling left out.LOL
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Offline Van

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2014, 09:41:56 PM »
Just my thoughts, I would cut the car behind the motor plate & add enough to put the motor at 48 -50 out. Moving the motor will help fix a few issues with the launch & add wheelbase to a short car. There are a lot of places to drop pounds off a dragster without going to a mag.

Offline rooman

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Re: Front End Designs / traction issues
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 04:59:49 AM »
Just my thoughts, I would cut the car behind the motor plate & add enough to put the motor at 48 -50 out. Moving the motor will help fix a few issues with the launch & add wheelbase to a short car. There are a lot of places to drop pounds off a dragster without going to a mag.

An awful lot of work involved in what you suggest Van, and having the motor that far out also requires a chassis that works well in the front half. Also the 10.5 tire might not be up to the task with that package. Adding that much to the chassis will mean that the frame rails are closer together at the mid plate due to the taper in the frame, everything between the motor and the rear end would need to go to space the uprights correctly, new mid plate and possibly front motor mounts depending on the driveshaft angle. If the lower rail angles down from the rear end to the mid plate how low will it be with the extra length? New driveshaft and shield, body panels etc. If Dragsternut can't do the job himself there would be a big bill at the chassis shop.
  Jon has it, right " Again, think about your best "Bang for your Bucks".
The best performance gain will be in changing your power train. 

Roo
Yeah, I am from the south--any further south and I would have been a bloody penguin.